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Zachary  
#421 Posted : Saturday, December 22, 2018 12:32:01 PM(UTC)
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The Blu-ray from Steve I was referring to is We're On Our Way to IB Tech. I had forgotten that he also put the Rio transfer on the Popeye and Betty Boop set, and yes, that one is darker, too dark actually with the blacklevel being a bit crushed. Though the presentation on the former disc is more compressed (lossy vs. uncompressed audio particularly) and has digital fades added on top of the originals at the beginning and end of the print, I have to say it's the better one overall.

I'm using MPC-HC, plus AvsPmod for editing purposes, and they are representing the colors and levels of the videos accurately. (I discovered that disabling FFDShow allows MPC-HC to utilize hardware accelerated decoding and play these high-quality AVC encodes fine, happily.)

Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 specify the Y'CbCr <-> RGB conversion formula constants for SD and HD video, respectively. Decode a video with the wrong formula and distorted colors result. If I decode the Way to IB Tech Blu-ray version of Steve's transfer as Rec. 601, the colors match PopKorn Kat's screenshots (with e.g. the Paramount logos' sky being overly red). Properly decoded as Rec. 709, it matches the DVD version of that set (properly decoded as Rec. 601).

I'm well aware that Technicolor prints can vary, but the fact remains that Steve's IB Tech transfers tend to have vibrant colors more in line with the old LTGC, etc., restorations from original negs than these. A flawed print can be forgiven if it's what's available, but they're using the original negs, so they can and should create a digital "print" that represents as closely as possible what an optimal Tech print would look like. That's not what I'm seeing in this new release.

Now working on comparisons...

Edited by user Saturday, December 22, 2018 12:37:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Zachary  
#422 Posted : Saturday, December 22, 2018 5:43:46 PM(UTC)
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Some frames from We're On Our Way to Rio. First of each pair is Steve's transfer. Second is the new restoration. I did not make any changes to either.

Key comparison points: the light blue sky at the beginning is more vivid in Steve's print, and the nightclub backgrounds are strikingly more colorful. The Paramount logos even have more red. Olive's red dress looks strong in the new restoration but the backgrounds look washed out in comparison.

The Technicolor print isn't perfect; the opening scenes look a little more balanced in the new restoration albeit paler. The point is the new restoration shouldn't just be blindly accepted as the best possible representation of how the film was meant to look.

The more I look at these new restorations the more I think this all has much to do with WB inadequately (if at all) adjusting the exposure "timing" from scene to scene.

One finds scenes on this release that do look pretty good color-wise, but others that don't so much, such as the blue-and-red Paramount logos or the title card for Pitchin' Woo at the Zoo. And one thing I've frequently noticed in films, including these, is a sudden disturbance or change in the exposure in the middle of a dissolve. I didn't realize why before, but if these new transfers are any indication, that effect is where the timing changes between scenes. I'm not seeing the effect in this new release; the dissolves just proceed smoothly.

Such scene-to-scene adjustments won't be present on the original negative, so a transfer of it has to be "timed" accordingly to get the proper look.

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Edited by user Saturday, December 22, 2018 5:46:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thad Komorowski  
#423 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:22:47 AM(UTC)
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And how do we know if Steve's settings were completely right for his copy? I showed him the WB BD and he said "Rio" was clearly superior there. The cartoons literally have never been treated better - the titles and tracks are (mostly) intact, the image is super clean without any "smoothing" or DVNR. At this point it's just nitpicking for nitpicking's sake. If you want to see some real criminal activity, go get the Celebrating Mickey BD, that along with the "modern" revisionism we come to expect from Disney, the frickin' titles are "reconstructed" so most of them have the wrong copyright dates. (Unfortunately, this doesn't enter them into the public domain like it used to.)

Especially after the shitbed of Porky 101, I couldn't be happier with this release.

(Although I think more disconcerting than color accuracy is that no one flagged the distorted "Anvil Chorus Girl" soundtrack... I put that one into Premiere and the levels were off the chart with clipping.)

Edited by user Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:26:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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kazblox  
#424 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 2:38:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski Go to Quoted Post
frickin' titles are "reconstructed"

Hey, at least they did a nifty job recognizing that titles with credits always have the credits slate fading in first while the title slate fades out slower instead of there being a direct transition. Things I mentioned before pages ago.

Still, this comes to show that even then, Disney hasn't found much of any original elements it can hold on to, not even 35mm to success. I think 'Pluto's Purchase' was the only one of the "Have A Laugh" series that had a 35mm element found to this day.
dbear  
#425 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 3:06:25 AM(UTC)
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I *thought* I highlighted the strange distortion issue on the opening titles of The Anvil Chorus Girl but guess I forgot to press Post :P

I actually managed to have a look at Celebrating Mickey (albeit via iTunes opposed to the Blu-ray). I will post my thoughts shortly in the relavent thread but in summary I very much prefer the approach taken by the Popeye restorations than the (surprisingly wildly inconsistent) Disney ones.
Thad Komorowski  
#426 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 3:12:52 AM(UTC)
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It’s actually throughout the cartoon. When they reconstructed “Anvil Chorus Girl” for The Popeye Show, they used the AAP track, except for the end cue which was the original and sounded similarly distorted. Good call.

I don’t think ANYthing can be said in those Disney redestructions’ favor when “The Simple Things” has a copyright date of 1940.
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dbear  
#427 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 3:31:19 AM(UTC)
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Quite a few Popeyes on the Boomerang streaming service with original titles have the opening music severely distorted or missing entirely for the first few seconds (off the top of my head Olive Oyl for President, Rocket to Mars and All's Fair at the Fair). Not sure is this is a related issue but it would be interesting to see how those end up sounding if Warner Archive get around to releasing them.
Mesterius  
#428 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 4:57:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski Go to Quoted Post
Although I think more disconcerting than color accuracy is that no one flagged the distorted "Anvil Chorus Girl" soundtrack... I put that one into Premiere and the levels were off the chart with clipping.


Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski Go to Quoted Post
It’s actually throughout the cartoon. When they reconstructed “Anvil Chorus Girl” for The Popeye Show, they used the AAP track, except for the end cue which was the original and sounded similarly distorted. Good call.


So the old AAP copy of "Anvil Chorus Girl" that's up on Boomerang's SVOD service actually has better sound than the version on the restored Blu-ray? That's kinda sad.

I guess this makes TWO cartoons which I hope WAC will revisit as bonus features in a potential second volume.

Edited by user Sunday, December 23, 2018 4:59:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

WaltWiz1901  
#429 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 6:23:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski Go to Quoted Post
If you want to see some real criminal activity, go get the Celebrating Mickey BD, that along with the "modern" revisionism we come to expect from Disney, the frickin' titles are "reconstructed" so most of them have the wrong copyright dates. (Unfortunately, this doesn't enter them into the public domain like it used to.)


And yet, aside from Steamboat Willie and most of Thru the Mirror, many of the shorts are more 'grainier' than most of the studio's "revisioned" features.....

(Believe me, Thad, you are not the only one who dislikes the "recreated" titles for much of Disney's shorts. Nothing is as completely pointless as slapping a card with a 1940 copyright in front of The Little Whirlwind (what, you couldn't bother to at least use the copyright card that's in front of Orphans' Benefit?), using completely inaccurate titles for Pluto's Party when it's clearly obvious that that short has Pluto's opening music playing over the credits, or - as you mentioned earlier - putting the same '40 'card' in front of a '50s short)

Edited by user Sunday, December 23, 2018 6:26:54 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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kazblox  
#430 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 7:30:12 AM(UTC)
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Correcting three errors only to release the fixed titles on a separate volume sounds like a waste of space, Mesterius.

It's better to just issue a new revision of the set if anything occurs.
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Mesterius  
#431 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 7:44:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
Correcting three errors only to release the fixed titles on a separate volume sounds like a waste of space, Mesterius.

It's better to just issue a new revision of the set if anything occurs.


I disagree. First of all: as far as I know, we're talking about TWO errors: the incomplete opening and end titles music in "For Better or Nurse", and the distorted audio throughout the entirety of "Anvil Chorus Girl". If there is a Volume 2 and they go for the same format of around 15 cartoons (or even a bit more) per disc, the disc could easily hold another two cartoons as bonus features. That goes for both Blu-ray and DVD.

Secondly, there is no way of knowing if there will ever be a second printing of this first volume. If there is, great; and it would be wonderful if corrected versions of the films were included there. But even if that should happen, it would be a far better solution for collectors who have already BOUGHT AND SUPPORTED the first printing to be able to get the corrected cartoons on a second volume. It sucks having to buy a whole Blu-ray over again just for two revised shorts.

Edited by user Sunday, December 23, 2018 7:49:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Toonatic  
#432 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:16:07 AM(UTC)
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In related Popeye news, Popeye the Sailor Volumes 2 and 3 re-releases are coming from the Warner Archive (as we've all been speculating)!:


https://www.amazon.com/P...940-Vol-2/dp/B07LD8RHPV/

https://www.amazon.com/P...943-Vol-3/dp/B07LD4STNR/
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Einhander  
#433 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:23:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Toonatic Go to Quoted Post
In related Popeye news, Popeye the Sailor Volumes 2 and 3 re-releases are coming from the Warner Archive (as we've all been speculating)!:


https://www.amazon.com/P...940-Vol-2/dp/B07LD8RHPV/

https://www.amazon.com/P...943-Vol-3/dp/B07LD4STNR/



Perhaps this was done to cover restoration expenses?
Jason Todd  
#434 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:55:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Einhander Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps this was done to cover restoration expenses?


Regardless, this is perfect news! I've been wanting to buy copies of Volumes 2 and 3 for the better part of a year now, and now I don't have to throw away two hundred-plus dollars on them!
Mesterius  
#435 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:02:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jason Todd Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Einhander Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps this was done to cover restoration expenses?


Regardless, this is perfect news! I've been wanting to buy copies of Volumes 2 and 3 for the better part of a year now, and now I don't have to throw away two hundred-plus dollars on them!


Yeah, only downside is you will get DVD-Rs. But it's nice that they are at least bringing them back in print. The Amazon dates seem a little confused though; Vol. 3 is slated for January 8 and Vol. 2 for January 19? :P

Edited by user Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:05:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Jason Todd  
#436 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:00:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, only downside is you will get DVD-Rs. But it's nice that they are at least bringing them back in print. The Amazon dates seem a little confused though; Vol. 3 is slated for January 8 and Vol. 2 for January 19? :P


At this point, I don't care if they're DVD-Rs. I just want them, and at affordable prices.
Leviathan  
#437 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:08:29 AM(UTC)
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Wow. I'm glad these are being reissued, even though I still have my retail sets from years ago. Someone asked Jerry about the WAC reissuing these sets earlier and the WAC wasn't even discussing or considering it.

Though I'd like to see BD treatments of these shorts.
Zachary  
#438 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:17:30 AM(UTC)
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Here's one more comparsion. The Paramount logo as seen in Steve's transfers of Cheese Burglar, The Stupidstitious Cat, and The Enchanted Square. There's a little variation between them (Technicolor), but the color (red especially) is vibrant. Most of Steve's IB transfers of later cartoons (with later versions of the logo) are also vibrant. And then the same version of the logo as seen on the first few Popeye cartoons with it (the others are no better). The opening logo from Tops in the Big Top (middle) has good-looking red, but the closing logo and all the others are relatively pale. Better colors can be found in scenes in the cartoons themselves, so why not here? See my comments about timing.

Of course the Rio restoration (and the others) is "clearly superior" - in clarity and cleanness. But washed out tan-looking nightclub backgrounds versus ones that actually have some meaningful color in the walls and curtains? See the seventh and tenth comparisons especially.

But hey, surely the great WB can be trusted more to do things correctly than Steve Stanchfield, right? If you want to accuse Steve of oversaturating the colors in his transfers, be my guest, but that would contradict what I've heard before. I'm not trying to be overly critical of this set. It's not like they're using faded Eastmancolor materials or such; these aren't that far off and are far better than the old TV materials. This set isn't evil like Disney's or a careless botch-job like Porky 101. But that doesn't mean it should just be swept under the rug when there's reason to be concerned about the handling of the colors.

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nickramer  
#439 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:38:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
Correcting three errors only to release the fixed titles on a separate volume sounds like a waste of space, Mesterius.

It's better to just issue a new revision of the set if anything occurs.


I disagree. First of all: as far as I know, we're talking about TWO errors: the incomplete opening and end titles music in "For Better or Nurse", and the distorted audio throughout the entirety of "Anvil Chorus Girl". If there is a Volume 2 and they go for the same format of around 15 cartoons (or even a bit more) per disc, the disc could easily hold another two cartoons as bonus features. That goes for both Blu-ray and DVD.

Secondly, there is no way of knowing if there will ever be a second printing of this first volume. If there is, great; and it would be wonderful if corrected versions of the films were included there. But even if that should happen, it would be a far better solution for collectors who have already BOUGHT AND SUPPORTED the first printing to be able to get the corrected cartoons on a second volume. It sucks having to buy a whole Blu-ray over again just for two revised shorts.


You can't always get what you want, Mesterus.
Mesterius  
#440 Posted : Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:35:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nickramer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
Correcting three errors only to release the fixed titles on a separate volume sounds like a waste of space, Mesterius.

It's better to just issue a new revision of the set if anything occurs.


I disagree. First of all: as far as I know, we're talking about TWO errors: the incomplete opening and end titles music in "For Better or Nurse", and the distorted audio throughout the entirety of "Anvil Chorus Girl". If there is a Volume 2 and they go for the same format of around 15 cartoons (or even a bit more) per disc, the disc could easily hold another two cartoons as bonus features. That goes for both Blu-ray and DVD.

Secondly, there is no way of knowing if there will ever be a second printing of this first volume. If there is, great; and it would be wonderful if corrected versions of the films were included there. But even if that should happen, it would be a far better solution for collectors who have already BOUGHT AND SUPPORTED the first printing to be able to get the corrected cartoons on a second volume. It sucks having to buy a whole Blu-ray over again just for two revised shorts.


You can't always get what you want, Mesterus.


I'm perfectly aware of that... and just to be clear; if I end up enjoying Volume 1 as much as I expect to, then I will very likely buy the second volume regardless of whether these two films are included in corrected versions or not. This is not a make or break thing for me. :) But what's wrong with suggesting and talking about what I want?

Honestly, I'd think more people would see it as a good idea to get these films presented 100% correctly, especially when it sounds like the errors in question can be fixed fairly easily. It would certainly be a nice gesture toward collectors (and, after all, the Warner Archive label is all about the collectors).
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