Popeye The Sailor The 1940's Volume 3 This September!!!- Page 7 - Forum.
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PopKorn Kat  
#121 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:57:22 AM(UTC)
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Got my Popeye Blu-Ray from Barnes & Noble today--in excellent condition!
SuperMuppet64  
#122 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 6:07:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Jason Todd Go to Quoted Post
Well, supposedly better elements of the films have been discovered. That said, if they do decide to do yet another Tom and Jerry collection, I really hope they, at the very least, take the ten entries that were remastered from Metrocolor reprints and restore them from Technicolor sources.


make that eleven, puss gets the boot is not an original technicolor element. there's also the absolutely rubbish prints of jerry's diary and heavenly puss used for vol 2.
id personally like to see new scans and/or restorations of the cartoons considering a number of vol 1 cartoons suffer from cleanup/noise reduction anomalies (especially solid serenade and kitty foiled) and vol 2 has the filtered color palette applied (apparently 2 cel mistakes in the original films were fixed too)
Leviathan  
#123 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 6:25:44 AM(UTC)
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I've had a chance to properly appraise the set.

Audio snafus aside, this set is amazing. Even the most unbearable cartoons on the set look like eye candy.

Re: The stock footage in Spinach Vs. Hamburgers, after having seen three different cheaters, it does seem like Famous/Paramount weren't as careful with the handling of stock footage as, say, Schlesinger/WB. I remember the beginning of the restored "Tortoise Wins By a Hare" having almost the same look as the standalone restored "Tortoise Beats Hare".
Zachary  
#124 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 9:10:40 AM(UTC)
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You're still assuming that WB is doing an immaculate job in presenting the picture elements on these cartoons as they are supposed to look, despite the evidence presented previously that indicates otherwise. Have you seen a vintage Technicolor release print of one of these "cheaters" that also shows such a difference between the reused footage and its source cartoon? Or perhaps this is just more evidence that Warner Archive has slacked off on implementing the proper scene-to-scene timing in these restorations?

Edited by user Tuesday, September 24, 2019 9:12:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Mesterius  
#125 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:41:28 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: SuperMuppet64 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jason Todd Go to Quoted Post
Well, supposedly better elements of the films have been discovered. That said, if they do decide to do yet another Tom and Jerry collection, I really hope they, at the very least, take the ten entries that were remastered from Metrocolor reprints and restore them from Technicolor sources.


make that eleven, puss gets the boot is not an original technicolor element. there's also the absolutely rubbish prints of jerry's diary and heavenly puss used for vol 2.
id personally like to see new scans and/or restorations of the cartoons considering a number of vol 1 cartoons suffer from cleanup/noise reduction anomalies (especially solid serenade and kitty foiled) and vol 2 has the filtered color palette applied (apparently 2 cel mistakes in the original films were fixed too)


Do you mean to say Solid Serenade and Kitty Foiled actually have DNR? First I've heard about it.
MTGM  
#126 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 9:42:35 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zachary Go to Quoted Post
You're still assuming that WB is doing an immaculate job in presenting the picture elements on these cartoons as they are supposed to look, despite the evidence presented previously that indicates otherwise. Have you seen a vintage Technicolor release print of one of these "cheaters" that also shows such a difference between the reused footage and its source cartoon? Or perhaps this is just more evidence that Warner Archive has slacked off on implementing the proper scene-to-scene timing in these restorations?


Think of the other possibility; these cartoons could have just been slapped on a DVD and presented in raspberry red or bubblegum pink.

Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post

Do you mean to say Solid Serenade and Kitty Foiled actually have DNR? First I've heard about it.


These two cartoons in particular showcase a bizarre artifact from the digital cleanup process used on Volume 1 where the outlines are ridiculously smooth and look like they were traced with digital black ink. Not only that, but there's also a decline in brushstroke detail on the character animations as well as lack of film grain in certain scenes of these shorts. For reference, look at the Tom kissing Spike scene in Solid Serenade and the Tom thinking he's dying scene in Kitty Foiled.
SuperMuppet64  
#127 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 9:56:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zachary Go to Quoted Post
You're still assuming that WB is doing an immaculate job in presenting the picture elements on these cartoons as they are supposed to look, despite the evidence presented previously that indicates otherwise. Have you seen a vintage Technicolor release print of one of these "cheaters" that also shows such a difference between the reused footage and its source cartoon? Or perhaps this is just more evidence that Warner Archive has slacked off on implementing the proper scene-to-scene timing in these restorations?

its a shame it sounds like youre trying to actively look for a problem here. it's a natural thing for films to go through generational loss when they're copied over and over again, and that includes the color. in fact comparing screenshots between tortoise beats hare and tortoise wins by a hare, the latter's reused footage seems slightly duller as a result. another thing, those two films were released two years apart, the popeyes are a ten year gap, though whether or not that contributes to anything is beyond me.
i believe wa and wbmpi care about what theyre doing when it comes to picture elements, i think george feltenstein said they were closely looking at original technicolor prints for reference.
im not one to speak, however. if you really want the most educated answer, you'll have to bring it up with the golden age cartoon historians who have experience with these films.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 25, 2019 10:22:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Zachary  
#128 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 2:44:04 PM(UTC)
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I suppose I haven't been as clear about my overall opinion on these sets as I should have been. My view is that these are a major improvement over previously available copies of most of these cartoons, and despite the flaws these sets are worth supporting; this series is an unexpected and welcome change from the prior years of these and other WB cartoon properties remaining in unreleased limbo. But the evidence contradicts the idea that these presentations picture-wise are flawless, accurate representations of how these films are supposed to look, which just about everyone has been praising them as.

Of course a dupe negative and the original are going to look different. But this is where timing comes in to compensate. An example is the washed-out Paramount titles compared to Steve Stanchfield's transfers (or a photo of a 35mm nitrate print), while some scenes in the cartoons themselves aren't so bad. The titles are dupe footage due to the optical effects needed. In the release prints the exposure timing was adjusted scene-by-scene so that everything looks right. The original negatives do not have these adjustments built-in and it is necessary to implement them in remastering to get the proper look. So they say that they consulted original prints when creating these masters - does that mean they actually followed through with conforming them to the proper look? The final products don't support that conclusion.

A prior poster raised the question of how we should respond to flaws in these sets. The least we can do is be honest about the shortcomings, while still buying the sets to support future releases. If Warner Archive really cares about the quality of the releases, they'll listen without any boycotting needed. I get the impression they don't, but at least buyers would know what they're getting. Glossing over problems and pretending things are better than they are does no one any good.
tashlinfan44  
#129 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 8:10:33 PM(UTC)
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Random question here. Relatively new to the forums, but I've been lurking around for years. Supposing we get a Volume 4/ Volume 1 of the 50s, what'll become of the ending to "Riot in Rhythm"? We lost the original ending to "Me Musical Nephews" because of nitrate deterioration, and I'm hoping that the same doesn't come along for "Riot." Anyone wanna guess as to what they'll do? Keep the a.a.p ending? Use the screen grab from Jerry Beck's decade old website? Any thoughts?
HeySteve  
#130 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 3:06:40 AM(UTC)
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Copies of “Riot in Rhythm” with original titles do exist. That screen grab on Jerry Beck’s website came from an eBay listing. Whether the person who won that auction would loan it to Warners is the main issue.
Pasko  
#131 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 4:08:17 AM(UTC)
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Well, the negative for Riot in Rhythm is presumably fine and unaltered like every negative so far bar Sheik's Clothing. So, the picture element will be there, while the sound is another thing.

Originally Posted by: tashlinfan44 Go to Quoted Post
We lost the original ending to "Me Musical Nephews" because of nitrate deterioration


Is this confirmed or just an assumption?
tashlinfan44  
#132 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:13:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pasko Go to Quoted Post
Well, the negative for Riot in Rhythm is presumably fine and unaltered like every negative so far bar Sheik's Clothing. So, the picture element will be there, while the sound is another thing.

Originally Posted by: tashlinfan44 Go to Quoted Post
We lost the original ending to "Me Musical Nephews" because of nitrate deterioration


Is this confirmed or just an assumption?


I could have sworn I read it on a thread on here explaining the restoration process of the B&W Popeyes. I think it was from the thread about the first volume in these Blu-Rays.
Zachary  
#133 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 10:05:36 AM(UTC)
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The DVD version of Me Musical Nephews has the original opening titles but a faked ending. I suppose it's possible they erroneously used the fake ending in place of the original, but it's more likely the original deteriorated or was incomplete and deemed unusable by WHV, like with The Hungry Goat or the several Vol. 1 cartoons that have the original end titles but fake opening titles. (Somehow the severely-shrunken original opening of The Jeep slipped through on Vol. 2.)
tashlinfan44  
#134 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:20:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zachary Go to Quoted Post
The DVD version of Me Musical Nephews has the original opening titles but a faked ending. I suppose it's possible they erroneously used the fake ending in place of the original, but it's more likely the original deteriorated or was incomplete and deemed unusable by WHV, like with The Hungry Goat or the several Vol. 1 cartoons that have the original end titles but fake opening titles. (Somehow the severely-shrunken original opening of The Jeep slipped through on Vol. 2.)
j

So you’re saying that deterioration got to some other cartoons too? Gee, what a shame... I suppose “The Hungry Goat” has its original opening but a faked ending? I thought Paramount held all the original complete elements for the B&W Popeyes.

Thad Komorowski  
#135 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 11:04:34 PM(UTC)
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"The Hungry Goat" ending was a recreation by Barry Mills for CN's The Popeye Show. They almost didn't include it on the DVD... that's why it was originally delayed, so they could add it.
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Jason Todd  
#136 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 4:16:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski Go to Quoted Post
"The Hungry Goat" ending was a recreation by Barry Mills for CN's The Popeye Show. They almost didn't include it on the DVD... that's why it was originally delayed, so they could add it.


How did they manage to recreate that end title? Especially since the ending gag is unique to that particular cartoon.
Thad Komorowski  
#137 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 5:20:30 AM(UTC)
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Probably some earlier incarnation of After Effects or a facsimile. I do recall Mr. Mills said it exhausted a lot of resource (time/money).
Einhander  
#138 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 9:49:10 AM(UTC)
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I never saw The Popeye Show, but I wonder if any of the color Famous cartoons restored in terms of picture and color. I know that "Rio" and "Tops" were restored with the original music cues, but did they do anything else?
Thad Komorowski  
#139 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 10:40:25 AM(UTC)
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No, they were just the old broadcast master with recreated titles. Still a very noble effort at the time when no serious work was being done for these cartoons. Should also note that Mr. Mills made the wise choice to use the TV track for the bulk of "Anvil Chorus Girl", and only use the distorted track for the original end cue. (Unfortunately, Warner Archive did not make that same call and used the distorted track for the entire cartoon.)
Gnik_LJN  
#140 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 11:36:04 AM(UTC)
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Wait, if the ending title for "Me Musical Nephews" wasn't accurate, then what was supposed to happen in the ending? Was there an end-title gag?
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