CinemaScope cartoons released or produced with stereophonic soundtracks - Forum.
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WaltWiz1901  
#1 Posted : Sunday, May 13, 2018 9:12:23 PM(UTC)
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With the introduction of the CinemaScope widescreen format in 1953, numerous films released in the process were recorded in three or four-track stereo. However, there are only a couple of animated material that I know were released with this feature, as listed below:
-Toot, Whistle, Plunk, and Boom (Walt Disney, 1953; three-track, released as a plain stereo soundtrack on the Disney Rarities DVD)
-Grand Canyonscope (Walt Disney, 1954; unknown if three or four-track, released as a Dolby Surround-encoded soundtrack on The Chronological Donald: Volume Four)
-Lady and the Tramp (Walt Disney, 1955; four-track, released in both three-channel and a remixed 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack on home video releases since 2006)
-Touche', Pussy Cat! (MGM, 1954; three-track, released in stereo on the first Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collection - but without a certain piece of dialogue (all other releases of this short AFAIK were released in mono))
Are there any other shorts or animated films produced with stereo soundtracks when released in CinemaScope, or are these it? This has been something that I have been thinking about for a long time.
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VoiceTalentBrendan on 5/14/2018(UTC)
User is suspended until 6/14/2292 4:56:53 PM(UTC) LuckyToon  
#2 Posted : Monday, May 14, 2018 5:22:19 PM(UTC)
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Speaking of Lady and the Tramp, if you buy the 1998 VHS which is the academy ratio version. You will noticed certain SFX or dialog that were either missing or are in different volumes (and sometimes the music playing more louder than the SFX and dialog) since the soundtrack is in mono.

For example, the opening theme during the opening titles plays the music louder than the lyrics, Trusty's snores are heard when the worm comes onto his nose (which are muted in the Cinemascope version), and the officer yelling after Tramp bit his bottom is in a lower volume (it's louder in the Cinemascope version since the music is at a lower volume).
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WaltWiz1901  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: LuckyToon Go to Quoted Post
Speaking of Lady and the Tramp, if you buy the 1998 VHS which is the academy ratio version. You will noticed certain SFX or dialog that were either missing or are in different volumes (and sometimes the music playing more louder than the SFX and dialog) since the soundtrack is in mono.

For example, the opening theme during the opening titles plays the music louder than the lyrics, Trusty's snores are heard when the worm comes onto his nose (which are muted in the Cinemascope version), and the officer yelling after Tramp bit his bottom is in a lower volume (it's louder in the Cinemascope version since the music is at a lower volume).

Interesting.

I have read that Toot, Whistle, Plunk, and Boom and the CinemaScope Donald cartoons, including Grand Canyonscope, were also released in the Academy ratio, albeit with their backgrounds altered to adapt to this narrower aspect ratio (and possibly, the CinemaScope reference in the latter replaced with "this is a big canyon"). If they were edited in order to fit smaller screens, would that mean the soundtrack was folded down into mono instead of keeping its "gimmicky" stereo imaging?

Secondly, were any of these shorts released with multi-channel sound? (all of the below titles were by Disney; I'm positive the stereo soundtracks for some MGM shorts have been released the way they were recorded originally on CD, but not on DVD for some reason):
-No Hunting
-Bearly Asleep
-Beezy Bear
-Chips Ahoy
-How to Have an Accident in the Home (I'm pretty sure this was originally a mono cartoon, since it could be considered an educational short)
-Hooked Bear (this was on the Rarities DVD, but because it was taken from a non-anamorphic tape master, both it and In the Bag were presented with mono sound)
-In the Bag (see above)
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VoiceTalentBrendan on 5/15/2018(UTC)
WaltWiz1901  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:28:35 AM(UTC)
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Received The Chronological Donald: Volume Four on Monday and checked out most of the CinemaScope cartoons on the second disc.

I can confirm the following:
-Grand Canyonscope is the only short to have a (true?) stereo soundtrack (according to Colin Jacobson's review of the set, this particular short's audio is matrixed Dolby Surround, but I don't have either a surround decoder or more than two speakers to fully confirm that)
-The other five shorts, unfortunately, sounded more monaural. I noticed that the buzzing noises at the beginning of Beezy Bear sounded more fuller than what you'd usually expect from a mono soundtrack; are there any other CinemaScope stereo soundtracks in the Disney vaults, or were they discarded in the "great archive purge" less than three decades ago?

Edited by user Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:52:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

dbear  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 2:55:05 AM(UTC)
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Bob Furmanek and Jack Theakston at the 3-D Film Archive have dabbled extensively looking at primary source documentation to determine which films were recorded and/or released with stereophonic soundtracks. Not sure if they have any on Disney shorts of that era but might be worth contacting them through the other film forums they frequently post at...

Of course, the Tom and Jerrys of this era have a Perspecta Sound notice in the credits (a pseudo-stereo system that would have had frequency control tones embedded in the mono optical track to "steer" the sound to come out of either the left, right or center speaker):
http://www.widescreenmus.../widescreen/perspec1.htm

However, Steve Hoffman claims none of the original 35mm prints he's handled actually have those control tones present, so they may have simply been released mono:
https://forums.stevehoff...-perspecta-sound.164892/

kazblox  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 3:05:31 AM(UTC)
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Never have seen a Tom and Jerry with a Perspecta soundtrack. Just regular bilateral mono variable area, single or duplex. Pre-Perspecta MGM cartoons use variable density.

Edited by user Thursday, December 20, 2018 3:06:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

WaltWiz1901  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 3:32:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dbear Go to Quoted Post
Bob Furmanek and Jack Theakston at the 3-D Film Archive have dabbled extensively looking at primary source documentation to determine which films were recorded and/or released with stereophonic soundtracks. Not sure if they have any on Disney shorts of that era but might be worth contacting them through the other film forums they frequently post at...

Of course, the Tom and Jerrys of this era have a Perspecta Sound notice in the credits (a pseudo-stereo system that would have had frequency control tones embedded in the mono optical track to "steer" the sound to come out of either the left, right or center speaker):
http://www.widescreenmus.../widescreen/perspec1.htm

However, Steve Hoffman claims none of the original 35mm prints he's handled actually have those control tones present, so they may have simply been released mono:
https://forums.stevehoff...-perspecta-sound.164892/


Interestingly, the first post in that link says that Touché, Pussy Cat! is in stereo. On DVD, is it encoded in plain left-and-right stereo or matrixed surround (like the Treasures transfer of Grand Canyonscope apparently is)?
Mesterius  
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:47:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WaltWiz1901 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dbear Go to Quoted Post
Bob Furmanek and Jack Theakston at the 3-D Film Archive have dabbled extensively looking at primary source documentation to determine which films were recorded and/or released with stereophonic soundtracks. Not sure if they have any on Disney shorts of that era but might be worth contacting them through the other film forums they frequently post at...

Of course, the Tom and Jerrys of this era have a Perspecta Sound notice in the credits (a pseudo-stereo system that would have had frequency control tones embedded in the mono optical track to "steer" the sound to come out of either the left, right or center speaker):
http://www.widescreenmus.../widescreen/perspec1.htm

However, Steve Hoffman claims none of the original 35mm prints he's handled actually have those control tones present, so they may have simply been released mono:
https://forums.stevehoff...-perspecta-sound.164892/


Interestingly, the first post in that link says that Touché, Pussy Cat! is in stereo. On DVD, is it encoded in plain left-and-right stereo or matrixed surround (like the Treasures transfer of Grand Canyonscope apparently is)?


Touché, Pussy Cat! is in proper stereo on The Spotlight Collection Volume 1, and it sounds pretty much just like the soundtrack stereo version released on the Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery Too CD - with the exception of Tuffy's song lyrics, which is the "certain piece of dialogue" referred to in the opening post. The song lyrics are included on the CD version but not the DVD.
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dbear on 12/20/2018(UTC), WaltWiz1901 on 12/20/2018(UTC)
kazblox  
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:58:25 AM(UTC)
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Well then, off to search up elements of 'Touché, Pussy Cat!'.
dbear  
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 6:58:31 AM(UTC)
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The Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery Too CD sounds intriguing, found the original product page via a quick Google search:
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com...y-Too!-Vol.-1-The-1950s/

So it seems 9 cartoons on the CD are truly stereo, taken from "original 35mm three-track masters":

Touche, Pussy Cat!
That's My Mommy
Deputy Droopy
Busy Buddies
Neapolitan Mouse
Downbeat Bear
Pet Peeve
Tom and Cherie
Cellbound

I presume the Spotlight Collection only presented these shorts as mono then?
WaltWiz1901  
#11 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:19:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post
Touché, Pussy Cat! is in proper stereo on The Spotlight Collection Volume 1, and it sounds pretty much just like the soundtrack stereo version released on the Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery Too CD - with the exception of Tuffy's song lyrics, which is the "certain piece of dialogue" referred to in the opening post. The song lyrics are included on the CD version but not the DVD.

Sounds interesting, but I'm still confused.

Have you checked scanning the info for disc 2 of the Spotlight Collection to see if Touché's Dolby Surround-encoded or not? Many "stereo" (2.0) soundtracks have two extra channels - center and surround - matrixed onto both [discrete] channels; is Touché's "stereo" soundtrack non-encoded stereo or Dolby Surround-encoded stereo?
Mesterius  
#12 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:24:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dbear Go to Quoted Post
The Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery Too CD sounds intriguing, found the original product page via a quick Google search:
https://www.filmscoremonthly.com...y-Too!-Vol.-1-The-1950s/

So it seems 9 cartoons on the CD are truly stereo, taken from "original 35mm three-track masters":

Touche, Pussy Cat!
That's My Mommy
Deputy Droopy
Busy Buddies
Neapolitan Mouse
Downbeat Bear
Pet Peeve
Tom and Cherie
Cellbound

I presume the Spotlight Collection only presented these shorts as mono then?


As far as I know, yes. But the CD release of these scores ONLY includes the music and the occasional song lyrics -- no SFX or dialogue. (Which of course is what makes it so great as a soundtrack release.) So: even if these isolated score elements exist and have been re-discovered in stereo, I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean the final mixes of the soundtracks (with SFX and dialogue included) have been preserved in stereo. The audio track for Touché, Pussy Cat! on the Spotlight DVD does sound to me like true stereo though.

Edited by user Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:26:58 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Mesterius  
#13 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 7:26:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WaltWiz1901 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mesterius Go to Quoted Post
Touché, Pussy Cat! is in proper stereo on The Spotlight Collection Volume 1, and it sounds pretty much just like the soundtrack stereo version released on the Tom and Jerry and Tex Avery Too CD - with the exception of Tuffy's song lyrics, which is the "certain piece of dialogue" referred to in the opening post. The song lyrics are included on the CD version but not the DVD.

Sounds interesting, but I'm still confused.

Have you checked scanning the info for disc 2 of the Spotlight Collection to see if Touché's Dolby Surround-encoded or not? Many "stereo" (2.0) soundtracks have two extra channels - center and surround - matrixed onto both [discrete] channels; is Touché's "stereo" soundtrack non-encoded stereo or Dolby Surround-encoded stereo?


Yeah, I have checked the file information. It is most definitely standard 2-channel stereo.
nickramer  
#14 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:06:30 PM(UTC)
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I know "Fantasia" was recorded in a somewhat precursor that the studio dubbed "Fantasound" and it was so new and expensive that the film was only released nationally in 14 theaters. And correct me if I'm wrong, be wasn't this film (unfortunately)re-recorded in stereophonic sound during its' early 80's rerelease in theaters?
ToonStar95  
#15 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:18:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nickramer Go to Quoted Post
I know "Fantasia" was recorded in a somewhat precursor that the studio dubbed "Fantasound" and it was so new and expensive that the film was only released nationally in 14 theaters. And correct me if I'm wrong, be wasn't this film (unfortunately)re-recorded in stereophonic sound during its' early 80's rerelease in theaters?


Disney self-distributed 14 Fnatasound prints during its roadshow run, then released it through RKO in mono in 1942. When it was (infamously) reissued in SuperScope in 1956, a new 4-channel stereo mix was created. On 1982, the soundtrack was re-recorded in digital stereo. In 1990, the original soundtrack was restored.
WaltWiz1901  
#16 Posted : Sunday, January 27, 2019 10:23:12 AM(UTC)
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Time to update the list I made in the first post of this thread.....
Disney
-Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom
-Grand Canyonscope
(Right now, I am not sure if any of the other five CinemaScope Donalds and the two Humphrey shorts were originally mixed and/or released in stereo; the Treasures discs they're on present them in mono. Can someone here contact someone like Bob Furmanek or Jack Theakston to see if they know exactly which shorts were mixed in stereophonic sound?)
MGM
-Touché, Pussy Cat! (was originally supposed to be presented in stereophonic sound, but was universally seen in monaural; the stereo version lacks Tuffy's song lyrics as he paints a picture of Tom)
-Good Will to Men
(Pet Peeve, Tom and Chérie, That's My Mommy!, Busy Buddies, and Down Beat Bear were also prepared with stereo sound, but the Spotlight Collection DVDs also only present them in mono; Jerry Beck says that *only* eight MGM shorts were recorded in true stereo, but if we're only talking about CinemaScope shorts, I can only count seven here; what could the eighth "CinemaScope stereo short" be?)

I am not sure if there were any CinemaScope UPA shorts or Terrytoons recorded in stereo; were any of those prepared this way?
dbear  
#17 Posted : Sunday, January 27, 2019 6:16:35 PM(UTC)
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The Smell-o-Vision short "The Tale of Old Whiff" survives only as a faded 70mm release print with six-track magnetic audio. A restored version is slated to appear on the upcoming Flicker Alley blu-ray of The Golden Head.

Some information on the audio restoration around the middle of the page:
https://www.endpointaudio.com/projects/
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WaltWiz1901 on 1/27/2019(UTC)
WaltWiz1901  
#18 Posted : Monday, January 28, 2019 9:00:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dbear Go to Quoted Post
The Smell-o-Vision short "The Tale of Old Whiff" survives only as a faded 70mm release print with six-track magnetic audio. A restored version is slated to appear on the upcoming Flicker Alley blu-ray of The Golden Head.

Some information on the audio restoration around the middle of the page:
https://www.endpointaudio.com/projects/

Although Tale of Old Whiff isn't a CinemaScope short, that's a pretty interesting read. Definitely going to get The Golden Head on Blu-ray primarily for that alone.....

Anyways, were any of the other seven CinemaScope Disney cartoons recorded in stereo? What about the UPA and Terrytoons shorts; were any of them recorded in stereo, too?
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