Einhander
2021-06-20T04:47:11Z
So I just happened to stumble across a Youtube video with the opening to the Spanish Dubbed version of The Early Bird Dood It (1942). But what caught my interest is that the second half of the title music sounded different, like if it was an alternate recording of some sort. In this one, the segway into Scott Bradley's version of Wagner's Bridal Chorus happens way earlier (starts at the Fred Quimby credit instead of the typical Tex Avery advisory gag at the start of the film).

Video in question:



Thad Komorowski
2021-06-20T15:59:27Z
This Spanish track cuts into Bradley's original arrangement (that was replaced for the reissue) much earlier than what we're used to. Cool find!
Gnik_LJN
2021-06-20T16:11:09Z
Finally someone mentioned this... thing that has driven me nuts.
If you see enough MGM cartoons, have the knowledge of MGM's long history of altering shorts for rereleases, your ear may be able to tell when a short was released before 1950, and when a short was released around or after 1950, and if you were keener you'd even be able to distinguish more time periods.
Now, that's why I noticed there's actually a difference in instrumentation between the title sequence shown on the MGM laserdiscs (Vimeo user "Movie Memories" uploaded a fantastic recording of that which was taken down) versus said sequence shown on the Turner print DVDs (You see that everywhere on the web, if the title card is encased in a yellow border), starting right when the animators' credit was shown. The rhythm is slightly different. There's a few more pronounced drums at the same notes in the Turner print as well.
It almost sounds like in the Turner print, the newly made soundtrack switched to the soundtrack from the 1942 release at the animators' credit, while in the laserdisc print, the same switch occured at the first few notes of "Here comes the bride" while the "To the ladies" title card is on screen.
This is so weird to see and hear and I can't actually put my finger on how it's possible. And I'm completely inept in terms of music composition but if any one is more knowledgeable, they will hear the discrepancies almost immediately.
Einhander
2021-06-20T20:19:39Z
Originally Posted by: Gnik_LJN 

Finally someone mentioned this... thing that has driven me nuts.
If you see enough MGM cartoons, have the knowledge of MGM's long history of altering shorts for rereleases, your ear may be able to tell when a short was released before 1950, and when a short was released around or after 1950, and if you were keener you'd even be able to distinguish more time periods.
Now, that's why I noticed there's actually a difference in instrumentation between the title sequence shown on the MGM laserdiscs (Vimeo user "Movie Memories" uploaded a fantastic recording of that which was taken down) versus said sequence shown on the Turner print DVDs (You see that everywhere on the web, if the title card is encased in a yellow border), starting right when the animators' credit was shown. The rhythm is slightly different. There's a few more pronounced drums at the same notes in the Turner print as well.
It almost sounds like in the Turner print, the newly made soundtrack switched to the soundtrack from the 1942 release at the animators' credit, while in the laserdisc print, the same switch occured at the first few notes of "Here comes the bride" while the "To the ladies" title card is on screen.
This is so weird to see and hear and I can't actually put my finger on how it's possible. And I'm completely inept in terms of music composition but if any one is more knowledgeable, they will hear the discrepancies almost immediately.


Facinatingly strange stuff indeed. If Turner switched to the original cue, then does that mean that they have the rest of the soundtrack with the Tiger Rag gag? Do they also have the soundtracks to the T&J's with their opening cues changed? (actually very unlikely now that I really think about it)
So much of this stuff may actually be in someone's hands but no one in those places really knows enough to care..
S. C. MacPeter
2021-06-20T23:36:12Z
Does anyone have an explanation how the European prints have the original title music earlier on? I suspect when MGM reissued it they didn't make the music edit for some master foreign print, but I'm most likely wrong
cartoon981002
2021-06-21T06:06:54Z
To be honest, it seems that most of the original Bradley scores exist somewhere. "The Early Bird Dood It!" is apparently one of those that exist from the original Bradley's recordings, that after they used for the international dubbings, so that's why that piece sounds different. I can tell that, because recently I found out that also the "Red Hot Riding Hood" original score exists, it was used for a Catalan dub of "Blue Cat Blues", and I sincerely don't know why since the instrumental track exists for that short. This can explain why there is no international dub that used the instrumental version of "Red Hot Riding Hood", because (apparently) it's the original recording of the first version of the short, in fact it contains the full Red's song (you can listen it here
)

In essence, it seems that the instrumental tracks of the MGM cartoons already existed at the time, and were probably used in countries such as Spain as early as the 40s for some dubs. If you listen to the old Spanish dub of "Solid Serenade" for example, you will hear that the soundtrack is identical to the American one, the sound effects are the same. But if you listen to the recent dubbing (or anyway the recent dubbing of this short regardless), you will hear that the sound effects are different. Apparently, over the years they have remade some instrumental tracks (I don't know why), using music that apparently still exists, and adding new sound effects, especially from the Jones period. For "Trap Happy" instead, it seems that the instrumental track has not been used in the recent dubs, so I thought it didn't exist. But if you listen to the old Spanish dub you will hear it in Tom's scene at the phone. Another case is "Northwest Hounded Police" which uses only the music in the instrumental track, with no effects.

There would be many things to discover about the instrumental tracks of the MGM shorts, but in essence, they seem to exist, and so they could also exist for shorts like "The Yankee Doodle Mouse", but who knows where.
Einhander
2021-06-21T07:34:23Z
Originally Posted by: cartoon981002 

To
be honest, it seems that most of the original Bradley scores exist somewhere. "The Early Bird Dood It!" is apparently one of those that exist from the original Bradley's recordings, that after they used for the international dubbings, so that's why that piece sounds different. I can tell that, because recently I found out that also the "Red Hot Riding Hood" original score exists, it was used for a Catalan dub of "Blue Cat Blues", and I sincerely don't know why since the instrumental track exists for that short. This can explain why there is no international dub that used the instrumental version of "Red Hot Riding Hood", because (apparently) it's the original recording of the first version of the short, in fact it contains the full Red's song (you can listen it here

)

In essence, it seems that the instrumental tracks of the MGM cartoons already existed at the time, and were probably used in countries such as Spain as early as the 40s for some dubs. If you listen to the old Spanish dub of "Solid Serenade" for example, you will hear that the soundtrack is identical to the American one, the sound effects are the same. But if you listen to the recent dubbing (or anyway the recent dubbing of this short regardless), you will hear that the sound effects are different. Apparently, over the years they have remade some instrumental tracks (I don't know why), using music that apparently still exists, and adding new sound effects, especially from the Jones period. For "Trap Happy" instead, it seems that the instrumental track has not been used in the recent dubs, so I thought it didn't exist. But if you listen to the old Spanish dub you will hear it in Tom's scene at the phone. Another case is "Northwest Hounded Police" which uses only the music in the instrumental track, with no effects.

There would be many things to discover about the instrumental tracks of the MGM shorts, but in essence, they seem to exist, and so they could also exist for shorts like "The Yankee Doodle Mouse", but who knows where.


If those 40's scores are indeed someplace, then makes me wonder why none of them were released in that Tom & Jerry & Tex Avery Too CD set. Though I assume it was because those ones were recorded in higher quality magnetic tape instead of the standard optical film audio. But I dunno...maybe as a bonus track or something?
cartoon981002
2021-06-21T08:02:50Z
Originally Posted by: Einhander 

Originally Posted by: cartoon981002 

To
be honest, it seems that most of the original Bradley scores exist somewhere. "The Early Bird Dood It!" is apparently one of those that exist from the original Bradley's recordings, that after they used for the international dubbings, so that's why that piece sounds different. I can tell that, because recently I found out that also the "Red Hot Riding Hood" original score exists, it was used for a Catalan dub of "Blue Cat Blues", and I sincerely don't know why since the instrumental track exists for that short. This can explain why there is no international dub that used the instrumental version of "Red Hot Riding Hood", because (apparently) it's the original recording of the first version of the short, in fact it contains the full Red's song (you can listen it here

)

In essence, it seems that the instrumental tracks of the MGM cartoons already existed at the time, and were probably used in countries such as Spain as early as the 40s for some dubs. If you listen to the old Spanish dub of "Solid Serenade" for example, you will hear that the soundtrack is identical to the American one, the sound effects are the same. But if you listen to the recent dubbing (or anyway the recent dubbing of this short regardless), you will hear that the sound effects are different. Apparently, over the years they have remade some instrumental tracks (I don't know why), using music that apparently still exists, and adding new sound effects, especially from the Jones period. For "Trap Happy" instead, it seems that the instrumental track has not been used in the recent dubs, so I thought it didn't exist. But if you listen to the old Spanish dub you will hear it in Tom's scene at the phone. Another case is "Northwest Hounded Police" which uses only the music in the instrumental track, with no effects.

There would be many things to discover about the instrumental tracks of the MGM shorts, but in essence, they seem to exist, and so they could also exist for shorts like "The Yankee Doodle Mouse", but who knows where.


If those 40's scores are indeed someplace, then makes me wonder why none of them were released in that Tom & Jerry & Tex Avery Too CD set. Though I assume it was because those ones were recorded in higher quality magnetic tape instead of the standard optical film audio. But I dunno...maybe as a bonus track or something?


That's exactly what I thought, and I don't have an answer to that. Your suggestion is a good one, but I'm not sure about that, what I can tell is that the instrumental tracks have an amazing sound quality, you can hear the real quality of the Bradley's scores, one of them is "Baby Puss" that I have in instrumental version, it's just wonderful, a quality that the English tracks will never reach. Also shorts like "Uncle Tom's Cabaña" has instrumental track, but I don't know if it was ever dubbed internationally. It remains to be discovered where these soundtracks may exist.
Thad Komorowski
2021-06-21T13:41:37Z
The music/S&E tracks to most of the MGM cartoons still exist and they were all transferred by Turner in the mid-90s, which is why the original music is still often underneath the re-dubbed cartoons with Ms. Two Shoes. (That weird transition in EARLY BIRD DOOD IT! is probably because that's where the original "Tiger Rag" dropped off and the cartoon's score started.)

As to why Scott Bradley's wonderful arrangements were never issued as bonus features on the many MGM cartoon home video collections... I think we have the answer with how the MGM cartoons themselves have been treated.
cartoon981002
2021-06-21T15:46:26Z
Originally Posted by: Thad Komorowski 

The music/S&E tracks to most of the MGM cartoons still exist and they were all transferred by Turner in the mid-90s, which is why the original music is still often underneath the re-dubbed cartoons with Ms. Two Shoes. (That weird transition in EARLY BIRD DOOD IT! is probably because that's where the original "Tiger Rag" dropped off and the cartoon's score started.)

As to why Scott Bradley's wonderful arrangements were never issued as bonus features on the many MGM cartoon home video collections... I think we have the answer with how the MGM cartoons themselves have been treated.


Thanks Thad to have specified, it's amazing to think that these scores still exist in perfect audio quality, the 40s shorts just sound incredible if you listen to instrumental tracks. It seems that most of the MGM cartoons have their instrumental tracks, in particular of Tom & Jerry, the only one I'm not sure about is "Trap Happy".

I still hope in the future we'll have a new volume with Bradley's scores, the 50s are good yeah, but the 40s would be perfect for a similar release, imagine to hear something like "The Zoot Cat" this way!
Gnik_LJN
2021-06-22T10:57:49Z
I'm so deprived of this stuff that a 2006 online upload of a 2000-ish TV dub of "The Zoot Cat", even if the sound quality is layers and layers of compressions and artifacts behind the true audio quality of the short, can be part of my playlist since it uses the accurate M&E soundtrack.
Einhander
2021-06-22T18:50:10Z
Originally Posted by: Gnik_LJN 

I'm so deprived of this stuff that a 2006 online upload of a 2000-ish TV dub of "The Zoot Cat", even if the sound quality is layers and layers of compressions and artifacts behind the true audio quality of the short, can be part of my playlist since it uses the accurate M&E soundtrack.


What were the changes? I know Turner changed the sound effect for the last gag in "Two Little Indians" and since then i've been curious to see what else they may have changed audio wise.
cartoon981002
2021-06-23T06:50:23Z
Originally Posted by: Einhander 

Originally Posted by: Gnik_LJN 

I'm so deprived of this stuff that a 2006 online upload of a 2000-ish TV dub of "The Zoot Cat", even if the sound quality is layers and layers of compressions and artifacts behind the true audio quality of the short, can be part of my playlist since it uses the accurate M&E soundtrack.


What were the changes? I know Turner changed the sound effect for the last gag in "Two Little Indians" and since then i've been curious to see what else they may have changed audio wise.


In shorts like "The Zoot Cat" or "Solid Serenade", in the recent instrumental m/e tracks used for international dubs, some sound effects are different and came from the Jones period. In "The Zoot Cat", you can hear it for example when Tom is in front of Toodles door and shows her the zoot suit (you can hear it here from the old Spanish dub
). Also, the piano arrangement of "Deep Purple" is different in the instrumental m/e version.

Considering that even this old dubbing uses this version and that there are sound effects from the Jones period, this makes me guess that these tracks were made around the 60s / 70s when the Jones shorts were launched internationally for film editions, and in the compilations there were also classic MGM cartoons that were dubbed for the first time abroad.
Einhander
2021-06-23T19:21:48Z
Originally Posted by: cartoon981002 

Originally Posted by: Einhander 

Originally Posted by: Gnik_LJN 

I'm so deprived of this stuff that a 2006 online upload of a 2000-ish TV dub of "The Zoot Cat", even if the sound quality is layers and layers of compressions and artifacts behind the true audio quality of the short, can be part of my playlist since it uses the accurate M&E soundtrack.


What were the changes? I know Turner changed the sound effect for the last gag in "Two Little Indians" and since then i've been curious to see what else they may have changed audio wise.


In shorts like "The Zoot Cat" or "Solid Serenade", in the recent instrumental m/e tracks used for international dubs, some sound effects are different and came from the Jones period. In "The Zoot Cat", you can hear it for example when Tom is in front of Toodles door and shows her the zoot suit (you can hear it here from the old Spanish dub
). Also, the piano arrangement of "Deep Purple" is different in the instrumental m/e version.

Considering that even this old dubbing uses this version and that there are sound effects from the Jones period, this makes me guess that these tracks were made around the 60s / 70s when the Jones shorts were launched internationally for film editions, and in the compilations there were also classic MGM cartoons that were dubbed for the first time abroad.


Checked the Spanish track on the Golden Collection and it's indeed as you described. I also checked the French dub on the disc and found it shared the same differences with the Spanish dub.
Now I'm starting to suspect that this was a general Jones era change to the films. I guess redrawn white Mammy wasn't the only changes done to them. I think English tracks of "The Zoot Cat" existed with the Jones SFX and the alternate "Deep Purple" at one point. I don't have any pre-Turner T&J home media releases on me so I can't check if any of the old MGM/UA releases also used the english version of the "Jones" track. My reasoning is that MGM/UA did use the June Foray and White Mammy for some shorts in their releases, which I heard was one flaw with the Laserdisc set.
I may be totally wrong on all of this though.
Gnik_LJN
2021-06-30T17:02:57Z




The Chinese dub from early 2006 (Probably used since 2001-ish) had the same sound effects added during Toot's dialogue. I had to cut this waaay short so as not to be copyright claimed, sorry.