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VoiceTalentBrendan  
#21 Posted : Monday, January 22, 2018 10:47:09 AM(UTC)
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the animation guild's interview with Disney animator David Block


David Block: I Came off of Fox and the Hound, and there were two movies getting ready to go. One was The Black Cauldron, which everyone was so excited about,

Steve Hulett: yeah, yeah

David Block: and the other one was Mickey's Christmas Carol

So in those days if you wanted to lobby for yourself, you did a personal test on your own time.

working nights and weekends just you wern't established yet you wern't the ron clements or john polmeroys or that ilk

You had a sort of win them over that you could do something.

Steve Hulett: sure

David Block: so i did a test of the hero from black cauldron and I went in to show the director, one of the directors who remain nameless

and he looked at that and said "Oh thats thats much broader then anything we're going to be doing, we're going to go very realistic."

Steve Hulett: it was the sleeping beauty snydrum

David Block: So I came out of there and went" I gotta get off this movie, I gotta get on Mickey's Christmas Carol"

so I did get on Mickey's Christmas Carol. and that was phonominial. aah god what a blast. and I was among really great animators. Glenn was on it. ed gombert, randy cartwright, mark henn, dale bear

I was in a very select group of animators, and we had a great time, the picture came out great. and became kind of an anual event when the thing would show up on tv

and more importantly kept us off of black cauldron for two years


Steve Hulett: yeah

David Block
: That was fa fantasitic because that thing was going into the toilet real quick

Steve Hulett
: yeah

David Block: so mark and I finished Blac uhh Mickey's Christmas Carol together and went on to black cauldron together and we even went on to the same sequence together

Steve Hulett: yeah,

David Block: and...

Steve Hulett
you end up you still got it

David Block: we still got it but we gotta see some characters by Black Cauldron standards. we ende up doing this character Fflewder Fflam

Steve Hulett: he was good

David Block
: he was a comic relief

Steve Hulett: creeper was too that were comic relief

David Block: right and Gurgi was also comic relief. but anyway we got htis character.
so we got this character we worked on him and we got off early to work on basil of baker street.

Steve Hulett: yeah

David Block: which became great mouse detective we got on to that early


here is the link to the interview both audio and video: https://animationguild.o...ral_history/david-block/
VoiceTalentBrendan  
#22 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 4:58:45 AM(UTC)
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transcript excerpt from the audio commentary of Don Hann’s documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty:

Don Hann: Now let’s hear from George Scribner, Who went on to direct Oliver & Company,
here he talks about working at the studio during The Black Cauldron.

George Scribner: There was this level of dissension and the movie that they were working on this was The Black Cauldron
was not universally liked.
You go to screenings and you would be watching sequences that had very little character development.
Or no one was compelling, there was no one of interest. Yet there was– These sequences and these beats and these acts
were celebrated by the directors and the producers above you.

You’re at them, going, are we looking at the same movie? What are you trying to accomplish?
Where’s the charm? Where’s the heart? Where are all the things that made Dumbo?
Which, in my opinion, is one of the greatest movies ever made.
It’s the simplest storyline with this enormous sense of affection and emotion. And it’s this gorgeous little film.
I’m like, do you guys know your legacy?
Do you know the precedents that have established that you can look back to? What are you tryin to do?

It became clear, apparently, that I suppose most of these directors were looking at “Raiders” and some of the work
that Lucas and Spielberg were doing
And how can we make movies like them? Well no,
the object is to make movie that are dear to your heart, that spring within you.

It was a crazy period
VoiceTalentBrendan  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, May 2, 2018 1:21:49 PM(UTC)
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From my Art of Prydain Tumblr blog https://art-ofprydain.tumblr.com/

There is information on the internet, I doubt it’s true,
that Disney wanted Ralph Bakshi to direct the film, and Bakshi turned them down.

Is this legit? what Disney employee sent that info if it was true?

This film has half the crew that worked with Bakshi on Lord of the Rings (1978) including Mike Ploog.
VoiceTalentBrendan  
#24 Posted : Saturday, May 5, 2018 4:03:03 PM(UTC)
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Tried to put a picture of the rare alternate title in this fourm topic (I need help)

The alternate title as I mentioned in the first post of this topic:
Taran and the Magic Cauldron

yeah, Disney did the same thing they did with The Great Mouse Detective (1986) rereleased in1992 under the title The Adventures of The Great Mouse Detective.

https://imaxination1980s...-of-re-titled-films.html

lengthy excerpt from imaxination1980videocorner blog:

"What's not very well-known was that Disney actually went as far as testing a different title for the film, a series of test screenings that could possibly lead to a theatrical re-release. The new title would be friendlier-sounding: Taran and the Magic Cauldron. It would be given a very bright and cutesy-looking poster that was a country mile from the original one!
now here is a rare find"

. For a while it seemed like this title and poster was only used for the picture's international theatrical re-release, because it did get one in the early 90s (when, is the bigger question - I have still yet to find that out), but... A US one-sheet with the title was designed, and apparently released! How can you tell it's a US poster? The MPAA rating is on it... And it's PG! Which pretty much dispels reports of the Taran version being recut.

Merchandise was even made for this planned re-release, from storybooks to puzzles! Not uncommon actually, for merchandise has been made for canceled/delayed releases before, especially in animation.


Foodfight!, one of the worst animated films ever made, is a great example of this. Merchandise for that movie appeared in random places, from stores to carnivals to claw machines, years before the movie was even "finished". Hoodwinked Too! is another good example. For a long time, the distributor intended to put it out in February 2010, until pushing it to April 2011 at the eleventh hour... But they were a little too late, for the Burger King toys for the movie were put in the kids' meals in February 2010! I remember that very well, actually. "Enjoy the toys from a movie you... Have to wait another year to see!"

A good non-animation example is a recent horror movie, Amityville: The Awakening. A few weeks ago, it was pushed back from April of this year to January of next year! Out of nowhere! I work at a movie theater, and months ago we got the poster for the film, complete with the 2016 on it... After it was pushed back to 2017, we no longer have the poster now. Several films have had trailers or promo materials made, only for the movie to get pushed back or to be canceled completely.

So, this planned Black Cauldron re-release...

This must've been from around 1990 or 1991. The copyright date, I can't make out, but it looks like 1985, the year the film first came out. When did the re-release occur in Europe and other parts of the world? Did Disney do the US test re-release around the same time?

Also, did the test screenings not do very well? Must've gone over poorly, because if they went well, the film would've gotten its official re-release. It shows that Disney, by that time, was perhaps not willing to completely bury the film."



A TV promo for a portuguesse dub with the alternate title Taran and The Magic Cauldron

Edited by user Saturday, May 5, 2018 4:47:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#25 Posted : Sunday, May 6, 2018 2:25:51 AM(UTC)
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Excerpt from Disney Film Behind Schedule August 10 1978
by Aljean Harmetz

Los Angeles - “The Black Cauldron” Walt Disney"s $10 million animated film scheduled for 1980, is four years behind schedule.
It will not be completed until Christmas 1984,
because the new crop of young animators the studio has spent six years acquiring are not yet competent to handle in complexities.
“The Black Cauldron” which is based on Lloyd Alexander’s interpretations of medieval Welsh mythology,
will be replaced in 1980 by a simpler and easier movie about animal freindship, “The Fox and the Hound.”

https://news.google.com/...g=7122,2605529&hl=en

(what this article is about is the switching of the completion dates)

I have come to the conclusion that the so called planed December 1984 release date was bunk.
the 1984 Date is THE completion date


start video at the 4:01 mark
narration excerpt from Backstage at Disney (1983)

John Culhane: "The Black Cauldron has been in the works for 3 years. scheduled to be released in 1985"

another evidence on the DVD of Don Hann's documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty
Randy Cartwrtight's 1983 Disney Studio's Home Movies. This footage is in the bonus features section

excerpt from Randy Cartwrtight's 1983 Disney Studio's Home Movies.

(Randy Cartwright was going to say farwell to Disney before he went off to Japan.)

Richard Rich : "You're going to Japan?"

Randy: "Yep."

Rosemary Anne Sisson: "Oh, no kidding."

Richard Rich : "Say a few words about your picture for posterity while we're here. It will be out in 1985."

Randy: "Hey, so will Nemo"

Randy is referring to TMS' Litte Nemo (one of the animated features that have long production histories.)

Richard Rich : "Is that right?"

Randy: "Hey!"

Richard Rich : "There we go. Then we'll see, Randy."

Randy: "Yes."

Rosemary Anne Sisson: "The Black Cauldron is gonna be the best picture that Disney ever made."

Randy: " And Little Nemo will be the best picture that Japan ever made."


I asked a youtuber who goes by the name of Filmmaker IQ about movie completion dates and here is what he said:

"Well, I don't think I've ever heard of the term "completion date" - there's an old editor's adage - a film is never done, it's only abandoned.

There's such a thing as a "Picture Lock" which means the picture is locked and moves to a different part of finishing... so I imagine a completion date is when the film is totally all done and finished.
Then the release date is just the date that it first goes on sale at the movie theaters or via streaming/TV"

a fellow member on this site mentions that Chuck Jones' The Phantom Tollbooth was completed in 1968, later released in 1970
and Eddie Murphy's film A Thousand Words had been on the shelf until 2012.


Excerpt from my recording of TCM showing of The Phantom Tollbooth

Robert Osbourne's intro for The Phantom Tollbooth: "MGM at that time was not quiet sure sure how to market the finished film. Turns out they never did figure it out.
When the film finaly was released, the company did not put much mussle behind it Mainly because MGM was struggling financully at that time with no money to promote it properly."


A Thousand Words 2012

I looked on Wikipedia (I think the Wiki author kind of researched well on
the film Thousand Words article that was last edited May 1, 2018. I looked at the source articles as well) There is more info
Finished filming in 2008, was planned to released in 2009.

The film was delayed and had reshoots in 2011,
director said the film will be released in 2011,
delayed to January 2012 (Eddie Murphy was assigned to host for the Oscars,
which murphy later stepped down of), March 2012 and finally April 20th 2012

Now back on topic to The Black Cauldron

I have doubts that Katzenberg had animation crew revise the animation. I think stuff like "Taran swinging his sword Dyrnwyn as he slays his foes" is bunk. While it is true that he cut parts of the cauldron born scene and had the other Disney employees cut the film further. I believe there are other scenes that other cut, but probably not violent.

again I will quote George Scribner:

"You go to screenings and you would be watching sequences that had very little character development.
Or no one was compelling, there was no one of interest. Yet there was– These sequences and these beats and these acts
were celebrated by the directors and the producers above you.

You’re at them, going, are we looking at the same movie? What are you trying to accomplish?
Where’s the charm? Where’s the heart? Where are all the things that made Dumbo?
Which, in my opinion, is one of the greatest movies ever made.

It’s the simplest storyline with this enormous sense of affection and emotion. And it’s this gorgeous little film.
I’m like, do you guys know your legacy?
Do you know the precedents that have established that you can look back to? What are you tryin to do?

It became clear, apparently, that I suppose most of these directors were looking at “Raiders” and some of the work
that Lucas and Spielberg were doing

And how can we make movies like them? Well no,
the object is to make movie that are dear to your heart, that spring within you.

It was a crazy period"

Disney Legend Floyd Norman has this to say:
http://floydnormancom.sq...5/4/1/the-black-cauldron

"Being back in the Disney family meant I could attend screenings of the ill fated animated feature and each new screening grew successively worse.

The directors began shifting the order of sequences as if that would garner a more compelling narrative.
Sadly, nothing appeared to help and the arrival of new Disney management in 1984 only drove the nail deeper."


I saw pencil tests and storyboards of the characters that have different costumes, in other shots, the characters wearing costumes that is close to the final film)
and also rejected character designs ( King Eiddileg and Doli. and also Jonathan Winters voiced Eiddileg, later replaced by Arthur Mallet although Winters voice in WDHV's reconstructed alternate Fairfolk scene is not on there. the whole deleted alternate scene was redubbed. the work in progress audio does not exist anymore?)

The fair folk scene in the final film, I think that was revised before Jeffrey Katzenberg edited the film.

If Jeffrey should get screen credit in the film, he should get credited as Post Production Editor

Edited by user Sunday, May 6, 2018 5:19:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: correcting typos

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#26 Posted : Sunday, May 6, 2018 3:03:29 AM(UTC)
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The film already cost a lot of money to make, the film was complete in late 1984.
again I doubt that Katzenberg had the animation crew reanimate some certain "violent" scenes to make less violent in the film such as "Taran slaying his foes" I think Taran in the film never did )

Edited by user Sunday, May 6, 2018 4:03:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#27 Posted : Sunday, May 6, 2018 6:14:39 AM(UTC)
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Here is a video that put together last year, and uploaded last month.
for Disney History and research purposes

The Black Cauldron storyboards with voice impressions by me: Brendan Steckelberg
and Elmer Bernstein’s music from the soundtrack album

These were from pictures of the collection of Photostats of storyboards, character models (both final and rejected designs)
Keep in mind not all of the Photostats of storyboards are fully shown.
Others are overlapped. (the overlapped ones I did not use, except one half on the bottom right of the last auction picture)
I only put together three scenes from what is easily presented in the auction pictures in this video


storyboards are from this auction link:
https://comics.ha.com/it...Owner-ThisAuction-120115

George Scribner is right, this lacked heart. How are you saposed to feel for these characters? How are you gonna find these characters likeable?
Granted not every Disney animated film has heart like Snow White, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Cinderella and others.

another interesting note: when author Lloyd Alexander start writing the Prydain books ( which originaily titled The Sons of Llyr
The publisher didn't like that, here is what she remembers "Lloyd, make it something kids would want to read. grab them. then , ooh fine, something like "Taran wanted to make a sword" which is the work he ended up having"

the books to me is something of a coming of age story, with themes of sacrifce and growing up, and heart (to me character developlment. which what the 1985 DIsney film lacked.)

I have read the first two books so far and I'm half way trough the 2nd chapter of the third book.

so yeah keep in mind when writing or drawing for a movie. or whatever, grab their attention. don't be afraid to make your art for yourself too, you can have some dark stuff in your film, if you're making it for Disney, put some fun into it. and put some heart in it.

Edited by user Monday, May 7, 2018 6:14:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#28 Posted : Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:56:13 AM(UTC)
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When John Huston (Gandalf from Rankin/Bass’ The Hobbit 1977 and The Return of the King 1980) came to Disney
to record the narration for The Black Cauldron

excerpt from Jeremiah Good’s Laughing Place article The Black Cauldron at the El Capitan Theatre:
https://www.laughingplac...-the-el-capitan-theatre/

“One of those moments where you know you just heard a story that very few have heard came when Hahn asked Hale
how John Huston came about as being the narrator at the opening of the film
and Hale said, “Roy E. Disney suggested using him because he always wanted to meet John Huston.” But, as it turned out,
Roy never got a chance to meet Huston because Hale spent the entire time talking to him about his war footage he had shot.”
VoiceTalentBrendan  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, May 8, 2018 9:35:14 AM(UTC)
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another rare behind the scenes look at Disney’s The Black Cauldron.
from YouTube channel ChroniqueDisney
This one comes from France. pencil tests, animators using a live pig as a model for hen wen. and also sound effects for the film.
VoiceTalentBrendan  
#30 Posted : Wednesday, May 9, 2018 1:42:59 AM(UTC)
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https://www.nytimes.com/...s-two-top-directors.html


1984 article about the then new Disney leaders. Frank Wells Michael Eisner, Jeffery Katzenberg.
also in this article Richard Berger who was hired by former Disney CEO Ron Miller had resigned,

here is something interesting: “Disney’s animated feature for 1985, the $25 million medieval fable “The Black Cauldron,” is not one of Mr. Berger’s projects. Planning for “The Black Cauldron,” the most complex and expensive animated film ever made by Disney, began more than six years ago.“


more evidence that the planned release date was 1985. not 1984.

Edited by user Wednesday, May 9, 2018 1:43:31 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#31 Posted : Wednesday, May 9, 2018 5:26:09 AM(UTC)
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vlogs I had recorded







and the vlog which I debunk the book Disney War

Edited by user Wednesday, May 9, 2018 5:27:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 2:40:34 AM(UTC)
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from my fourm topic: Debunking Misinformation about Animated Movie History


The Black Cauldron 1985 Walt Disney Pictures

"The Black Cauldron was the first Disney animated theatrical feature to receive a PG rating.
It even had to be edited twice to avoid being released with a PG-13 or R rating."


nope.

from my Tumblr blog
art-ofprydain

“It even had to be edited twice to avoid being released with a PG-13 or R rating”.

I think they have intended this to be PG rated,

this was in pre production since the 1970′s, and in production since the early 1980′s.

There was no PG 13 rating until after parents criticizing the violence in films like Gremlins (1984)

and Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom (1984)

if you look at what was happening in the late 1970′s and 1980′s Disney was going through a slump,

While outside of Disney, filmmakers like Spielberg and Lucas made some interesting films.

According to Don Hann’s documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty: :”Around that time,

the studio did a survey that teenage movie goers would be caught dead near a Disney movie”

If you look at the Disney feature films
from the late 70′s and early 1980′s range from dark SciFi (The Black Hole 1979)

Thriller (The Watcher In The Woods 1981) Dark Comedy (The Devil and Max Devilin 1981 it’s a stinker)

horror (Ray Bradbury’s Something Wicked This Way Comes 1983)

Could it be that with Disney and their Prydain film was aimed at Spielberg or Lucas type crowd?

niche audience? 80′s teen crowd? Obviously the cauldron born scene is very Indiana Jones eqs.

( even resulting a outraged Katzenberg to cut the film in late 1984

Excerpt from The New York Times Article
ANIMATION AGAIN A PRIORITY AT DISNEY
By ALJEAN HARMETZ
August 27, 1984


“The Black Cauldron,” the most complex and expensive animated feature ever produced by Walt Disney Studios,

will be released next summer. This medieval Welsh fable,

based on a series of award-winning children’s books by Lloyd Alexander,

was filmed in 70 millimeter at a cost of $25 million.

The film’s Horned King villain is one of Disney’s most sinister characters.

The boy hero must find the Black Cauldron before the Horned King uses it to bring back dead warriors

from past wars and gather an invincible army. It is conceivable, said Ron Miller,

president and chief executive officer of Walt Disney Productions,

that the movie will be the first Disney cartoon to get a PG rating.”


https://www.nytimes.com/...-priority-at-disney.html


Conflicting info on what was the Date of Jeffery Kattzenberg's Arrival at Disney or first weeks.

conflicting info, some sources say Katzenberg started at Disney in October 1984

a few sources say 1985: (This eldest article that announces as such, is one of them.)

also the book the Disney Touch by Ron Grover 1991

and the article from 1987 Disney Gearing Up For More Animation

on October 1, 1984 in this retro article:

it was announced that Jeffery Katzenberg would leave Paramount in January of 1985

and Join Disney in February of 1985.

Excerpt from DISNEY NAMES MOVIE AND TV HEAD
from The New York Times
October 1, 1984


“Mr. Katzenberg’s contract at Paramount is up in January, and he will join Disney on Feb. 1.

Mr. Katzenberg has been wooed by at least three other movie studios since the resignation of

Paramount’s chairman, Barry Diller, on Sept. 11,

which started a round of musical chairs in Hollywood’s executive suites. In a statement today,

Mr. Katzenberg said that he was moving to Disney rather than staying at Paramount because of

the “opportunity to work in areas beyond motion pictures.”

In an interview last week, Mr. Eisner,

who resigned as president of Paramount Sept. 12 after he was passed over for the company’s chairmanship,

gave warning to the movie industry that he intended to make Disney studios competitive with the biggest

and best of Hollywood’s film companies.

In recent years, Disney’s film division has fallen on hard times.

Disney has been unable to shake the stigma of being considered a moviemaker for children.

The core teen-age audience, critical to a movie-maker today, has stayed away.

Neither “The Black Hole” nor “Tron,” two attempts to appeal to teen-agers, did as well as expected,

and, in 1983, Disney had to take a writedown of $21 million on “Something Wicked This Way Comes,”

a $23 million fantasy film based on a Ray Bradbury novel.

Under Ronald L. Miller, who was forced to resigned as president and chief executive officer on Sept. 7,

Disney recently initiated a non-Disney distribution label, “Touchstone,” for films with more mature themes.

The first Touchstone movie,

“Splash,” was a box-office hit. A romantic comedy about a mermaid that included some nudity,

“Splash” earned Disney more than $35 million in film rentals.

The second Touchstone film, “Country,” a movie starring Jessica Lange

that concerns the plight of present-day farmers, opened the New York Film Festival last Friday.

The average movie studio releases 12 to 15 movies a year. In addition to “Splash” and “Country,”

Disney’s only 1984 movie was a re-issue of its 1967 animated film,

“The Jungle Book.” Because of his extensive relationships with film makers,

Mr. Katzenberg, who started in the movie industry as assistant to the Paramount chairman 10 years ago,
is expected to help Disney win access to projects.”

https://www.nytimes.com/...Fbyline%2Faljean-harmetz

hmmmmmm so Jeffrey’s first weeks at the studio was in February of 1985. huh

so he and the other Disney employees might have reedited the film at that time.

I doubt that Katzenberg had the animators, painters ,

Xerox people and camera crew reanimate certain parts of the film to make less violent. I have my doubts.

If some of you that worked for Disney in the late 1970′s and early to mid 1980′s have proof that

such a thing happened, please prove me wrong

The film already at that point cost a lot of money to make..

Steve Hulet's Mouse in Trasition Chapter 16

In this article, I’m now not sure what comes first,

Roy’s December 1984 letter to the Animation department to move the next year,

or Jeffrey Katzenberg at the Disney studio Screening of The Black Cauldron, later Jeffrey edits the film. .

hmmmmmmm

https://www.cartoonbrew....g-chapter-16-108210.html

another conflicting article from 1984

Excerpt from How The Hollywood Studio Shake-Ups Are Shaking Down
October 23, 1984
by Aljean Harmetz


“There is general agreement that Walt Disney Productions, which only released two new movies in 1984,

will become a major player in the Hollywood game of trying to hit home runs at the box office.

“The most important consequence of all this executive shifting will be the new role of Disney,” said Arthur Rockwell,

a former movie industry analyst who is now a vice president at M-G-M/UA.

“Three high-powered executives going to Disney clearly signifies Disney’s intentions of being a major studio.”

Jeffrey Katzenberg, the former president of movie production at Paramount who has moved to Disney as president of movies

and television,

said about the current situation: “I’m a buyer, and there’s going to be a sellers’ market for a while.

But in the last 10 years I’ve seen us go through at least three full boom-and-bust cycles.

’‘Historically, the movie industry has an ebb and flow of product. When you get more buyers or the current buyers get more

aggressive, you have a boom,

and inflated prices make it difficult to make deals. Traditionally, the boom is followed by a bust. A boom cycle started a year ago

and now we’re nearing the crest.

Had the managements stayed in place, we would have started a slow descent in the spring of 1985.

Now the bust is going to be delayed.”

https://www.nytimes.com/...Fbyline%2Faljean-harmetz

hmmmm

Alright,

Which is the date that Katzenberg started at Disney? Is it 1984 or 1985?

and what year was he actually there?

Edited by user Friday, June 15, 2018 8:42:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

VoiceTalentBrendan  
#33 Posted : Thursday, June 28, 2018 7:21:58 AM(UTC)
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Would you like to check out my new blog I've started back in February?
https://prydainonfilm.blogspot.com/
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