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dbear  
#1 Posted : Friday, October 26, 2018 4:55:51 PM(UTC)
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So I recieved a response back from the BFI

The bad news is I cannot inspect or request an inspection of any film material designated as "restricted access" in the Archive. This includes practically all the nitrate and/or pre-print "master material" they hold for the time being.

The good news is I am able to request a personal inspection of any "viewing" material on-site. They have a limited but varied selection of safety preservation material which I infer from the metadata info on the Collections Search website were duplicated decades ago from nitrate materials held at the Archive.

I decided to focus on the Fleischer cartoons they hold as 35mm viewing copies. Then gradually as time and expenses allow, I'll move on to cartoons from other studios.

I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to take any photos but I will be making detailed notes if I encounter any unusual title cards or edits.

Of course, I'm being charged a flat fee as well as my own transport to their Steenbeck viewing facilities in Central London. I'd be happy to spend my own money on this but if anyone is willing to tip me for this "research trip", you're welcome to PM me for a donation link.
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kazblox  
#2 Posted : Friday, October 26, 2018 9:05:47 PM(UTC)
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Please report on 'Clowning' whenever you can, and any of Paul Terry's Fables that are available for viewing.

I have been yearning to search for public viewing elements to any of the original, theatrical releases of the Fables; most of the interesting ones with public access are available in Britain. Here's a list:

Quote:
'The Country Mouse and The City Mouse'
'The Farmer and The Ostrich'
'The Eternal Triangle'
'The Model Dairy'
'The Spendthrift'
'The Cat's Whiskers'


There's a possibility that all of these have their original, theatrical titles; they are all titles from 1921 to 1923, and thus are possibly using the same opening and ending title card that has been found with the only surviving 35mm nitrate elements I know of 'Henry's Busted Romance' and 'Happy-Go-Luckies'. 'Summertime', after the Paul Terry era has a 35mm positive for viewing as well.

Edited by user Saturday, October 27, 2018 8:55:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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dbear on 10/27/2018(UTC)
kazblox  
#3 Posted : Saturday, October 27, 2018 6:43:28 AM(UTC)
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Some elements of interest of Fleischer titles of my interest that are available as 35mm viewing elements:

Quote:
'Mask-a-raid' - part of the U.M. & M. TV package with camera negatives altered, might use same Paramount opening and ending card as 'Minnie The Moocher', 'Ain't She Sweet?' and 'The Misleading Lady', the only Paramount film I know that uses it
'The Old Man of the Mountain' - part of the U.M. & M. TV package with camera negatives altered, theatrical survives on 9.5mm
'Parade of the Wooden Soldiers' - part of the U.M. & M. TV package with camera negatives altered, theatrical survives on 9.5mm
'I Wished on the Moon' - part of the U.M. & M. TV package with camera negatives altered
'Cops is Always Right' - uses a standard theatrical Paramount opening card, seen in 'Leave Well Enough Alone', which was restored complete by Warner Home Video

Edited by user Monday, October 29, 2018 7:04:42 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Zachary  
#4 Posted : Saturday, October 27, 2018 7:57:04 AM(UTC)
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If the Fleischer cartoons have the original titles and you are able to at least write down their names and animation credits (aside from the ones you know already circulate with those credits intact), that would be great. The U.S. copyright catalog entries for these often don't list the animation credits, so there are a number whose credits are at least partially unknown due to UM&M carelessly not retaining them in the TV titles.
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dbear on 10/27/2018(UTC)
kazblox  
#5 Posted : Saturday, October 27, 2018 10:52:35 PM(UTC)
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Interesting viewing elements of Disney titles I could find as 35mm positives:
Quote:
'When The Cat's Away' - camera negatives altered on reissue
'Mickey Cuts Up' - camera negatives altered on reissue
'The Art Of Skiing' - camera negatives altered with opening title cels reshot but MPPDA code moved on reissue
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dbear on 10/27/2018(UTC)
dbear  
#6 Posted : Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:49:33 PM(UTC)
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Thanks guys, keep these lists coming. I think I have found all the sound 1930s shorts they have 35mm viewing copies on but I could be missing a few.

For my first session, I've sent a request for essentially almost all the non-Popeye Fleischer shorts I could find (though I missed The Old Man of the Mountain, oops):
C-15368 MASK-A-RAID
C-33733 The Contest (Out of the Inkwell)
C-34096 COPY CAT
C-87289 KO-KO CHOPS SUEY
C-87295 KOKO IN 1999
C-87296 KOKO'S BATH
C-123244 PARADE OF THE WOODEN SOLDIERS
C-179931 TWINKLETOES, WHERE HE GOES NOBODY KNOWS
C-213803 I WISHED ON THE MOON
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PopKorn Kat on 10/28/2018(UTC)
kazblox  
#7 Posted : Sunday, October 28, 2018 4:42:28 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
'Summertime', after the Paul Terry era has a 35mm positive for viewing as well.

There are also viewing elements available for 'The Barnyard Melody' and 'The Jungle Fool'. All elements for 'Custard Pies' are restricted.

Speaking of which, 'Custard Pies' might be a sound reissue of 'The Pie Man'; which I have found no element of to begin with. More on this later when I write up my next post on my Aesop's Fables thread.
kazblox  
#8 Posted : Sunday, October 28, 2018 5:40:31 AM(UTC)
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'Sinkin' in the Bathtub' is also available for viewing; rumors keep saying that this had an animated opening sequence yet I have not found any evidence that this is actually true.

Tom and Jerry titles with available 35mm color positives for viewing:
Quote:
'Flirty Birdy' - reissued with camera negatives altered
'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Mouse' - reissued with camera negatives altered
'Texas Tom' - reissued with camera negatives altered
.
These were all added as safety elements around the last decade or so, with no nitrate materials being held in the archives themselves. They may as could be reissue elements, but who knows?

Also forgot to mention; 'Piano Tooners', a Van Beuren Tom and Jerry, is also available for viewing as a 35mm positive! This element is likely in it's original Movietone ratio.

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:39:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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kazblox  
#9 Posted : Sunday, October 28, 2018 11:37:45 PM(UTC)
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Tex Avery MGM titles available as 35mm color positives in the archives, seemed to be all donated around 1987:
Quote:
'Red Hot Riding Hood' - reissued with camera negatives altered
'Slap Happy Lion' - reissued with camera negatives altered
'Little Rural Riding Hood' - reissued with camera negatives altered
'Drag-a-long Droopy' - reissued with camera negatives altered


Once again, these may or may not be reissue elements. The archives hold restricted access to an element of 'Spree For All' and apparently, a nitrate element of 'Flip Flap', also restricted.

Edited by user Monday, October 29, 2018 2:16:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Zachary  
#10 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2018 3:33:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
'Cops is Always Right' - uses a standard theatrical Paramount opening card; restored complete by Warner Home Video

The version on the Popeye Vol. 2 DVD has non-original Paramount logos and uses the version of the opening logo found on earlier Fleischer cartoons. The real original opening used the same opening logo seen on Leave Well Enough Alone (i.e., the one normally used on Paramount's features of the time). See this transfer of a print with the original titles on the British Pathe website: https://www.britishpathe...an-cops-is-always-right/ (the opening logo is mostly cut off, but there's enough left to distinguish which one it is).

If Drag-a-long Droopy was reissued, it was in September 1958 or after when the reissues no longer affected the preservation of the original titles. Thus what, if any, changes were made in such a later reissue are what would be interesting to find...

Mask-A-Raid is one of the credit-less Fleischer titles I was referring to, so looking forward to the scoop on that. Though the Culhane crew's involvement is already clear from examining the animation.

Edited by user Monday, October 29, 2018 3:35:36 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

kazblox  
#11 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2018 7:02:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zachary Go to Quoted Post
The real original opening used the same opening logo seen on Leave Well Enough Alone (i.e., the one normally used on Paramount's features of the time).

Hence "standard theatrical Paramount opening card". What part of "standard" did you not get? I did accidentally mention that 'Cops is Always Right' had the opening intact on it's restoration, when I should have said that for 'Leave Well Enough Alone'.

The Fleischers have always used special logo designs that have appeared nowhere else since 1932. The only time that I can think of titles that were exceptions were probably the two titles I mentioned above, 'Gulliver's Travels', possibly 'Customers Wanted' and maybe a few Betty Boop titles from the earlier period of that year.

Edited by user Monday, October 29, 2018 7:07:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Zachary  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2018 12:49:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
Hence "standard theatrical Paramount opening card". What part of "standard" did you not get?

Your accidental misstatement about Cops is Always Right made the intended meaning of "standard" unclear.
nickramer  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2018 8:00:13 PM(UTC)
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Are there any other Warner cartoons in the archive (available or restricted)?
kazblox  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:36:28 PM(UTC)
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Just 16mm acetate safety elements; likely Eastman, LPP, Afga color or black and white television materials. A few could be in Technicolor. Some, such as 'Rookie Revue' are nitrates.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:38:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

kazblox  
#15 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2018 5:16:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
Please report on 'Clowning' whenever you can, and any of Paul Terry's Fables that are available for viewing.

I forgot to say; 'Her First Egg' is also available for viewing! Perhaps it's where the unknown storyboard shot I found on line of Moser's depiction of Farmer Al Falfa training a rooster comes from.

http://intanibase.com/fo...unknown-Fable-Terry-Toon

Edited by user Thursday, November 1, 2018 5:23:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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dbear  
#16 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2018 6:20:21 AM(UTC)
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Yes I noticed Her First Egg on my preliminary check on 1930s cartoons. Anyway the Fleischer viewing has been penciled in for later this month so I'll report back and see when I can schedule (and afford!) a second viewing likely in late December if all goes well.
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Mac on 11/3/2018(UTC)
kazblox  
#17 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 3:03:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: kazblox Go to Quoted Post
and thus are possibly using the same opening and ending card that has been found with the only surviving 35mm nitrate elements I know of 'Henry's Busted Romance' and 'Happy-Go-Luckies'.

Here are screenshots, for those who are curious. Notice the lack of a Pathé Exchange reference; yet, the artwork assumes that one would be put in at the bottom, as with later Fables surviving with original titles. Unlike later Fables, with a "here every week" catchphrase at the ending, the closing card here is simply the same artwork shown in the opening; only difference is that there is a plain caption saying "THE END".
Quote:

Opening title card
Ending title card

Not strictly relevant to this thread, but the earliest Fables on that list might have cruder art for the opening and ending cards; would make good for identification. While I can not show the original titles to 'The Wolf and Kid', I can show how battered the art design once was with the card showing Aesop's teachings.
Quote:
Ealier iteration of card with Aesop's teachings, used in the earliest Fables until 1922

versus:
Quote:
Later iteration of card with Aesop's teachings, used until the John Foster era

I will be documenting more on these titles for the next post I make in my Fables thread.

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2018 6:04:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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kazblox  
#18 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 8:42:22 PM(UTC)
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'I'll Never Crow Again' is available as a 35mm positive. If I can recall, the titles were recreated for home video using materials from the later Fleischer Popeye shorts with the pipe shot at the opening.

'Copy Cat', an Animated Antic, is available as a 35mm positive.

'Playful Pluto' is also available for viewing as a 35mm positive; thanks to Erik, we know what the original titles look like.

For more silent titles; 'Sleepy Holler', a late Winkler Krazy Kat is also available as a 35mm positive, and so is 'The Magic Lamp', a silent Bray/Lantz title.

'Jitterbug Knights' is available for viewing as a 35mm color positive as well.

But even more important; there's a 35mm polyester dupe of 'Toby the Showman', completely available in it's entirety with sound!
http://collections-searc...hoiceFilmItems/153308556

Does David Gerstein know about this element?

Edited by user Saturday, November 3, 2018 8:45:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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nickramer  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, November 7, 2018 12:38:13 AM(UTC)
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Are there any "lost" Felix shorts included in the archive?
dbear  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, November 7, 2018 3:08:06 AM(UTC)
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At the screening where they re-premiered Sleigh Bells (god was that really 3 years ago now?!), they did off-handily mention they were working with David Gerstein on a "Felix the Cat project".
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