Debunking Misinformation about Animated Movie History - Forum.
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#1 Posted : Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:12:05 PM(UTC)

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This topic is to debunk Misinformation on such behind the scenes of animated films.

Hopefully this will become a referance guide for this website, and others.

Mr. Bug Goes To Town 1942 Fleischer Studios

"Failed on December, 1941 due to Pearl Harbor"

Nope Just Nope

in 2013 on cartoon research, more info has come to light. go read it! Here is the link below!

and please read the book The Art and Inventions Of Max Fleischer.

A smiliar fate as with Sullivan's Travels happend, both had press releases for the critics,
both films have delayed release dates.

also theaters during 1941 didn't want to show Mr. Bug.

In January of 1942, Paramount released the film in England under the title Hoppity Goes to Town.

In February 1942 Mr. Bug Goes To Town finally made it to North American theaters.

years later when an TV company named N.T.A. got the rights to half of the early Paramount libray,
N.T.A released the film with the British title. (with N.T.A.'s static burlap title.)

Does the orginial British title Hoppity Goes to Town still exist?

The copyright status of Rankin/Bass (VideoCraft Internatinal)'s Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (1964)

some people on the internet: "oh back in the old days people used to put the copyright on the film,
while the copyright date on Rudolph says 1664, it should be public domain."

comments on tumblr:

Also fun fact: At least according to the Public Domain Superheroes
Wiki, this special is actually public domain due to them royally fucking up the copyright,
though Rudolph is still under lock and key thanks to being created before!
But the elements original to the special, those are all PD!

Yukon Cornelius, Bumble, Hermey the Elf,
and Head “WHY WEREN’T YOU AT ELF PRACTICE” Elf are public domain and up for grabs people!

My comment:

public domain? bah! you don’t make a copyright by just making the date,
company name and copyright logo on the film.

you first have to register your work to the copyright office.
yes the copyright year on the film is incorrect,
there are also misspellings of names in the end credits.

Edit: when you register the product for the copyright,
you also have to pay. depending on how much they want.

Frosty The Snowman 1969 Rankin/Bass
"June Foray was Karan in the 1969 broadcast but was replaced by an unknown in 1970"


From Rankin/Bass Historian Rick Goldschmidt's Facebook
Rick Goldschmidt
December 14, 2016 ·

Just looked at a "click bait" Frosty article with 10 things you never knew about Frosty the Snowman. Unfortunately,

the authors of these articles don't know either.

One thing they said is that June Foray's voice was featured in the first few broadcasts of Frosty.

FALSE: She recorded the voice of Karen, but was replaced by a small girl actress,

before it aired in 1969. Her recording remained on the MGM soundtrack release as Karen.

I actually worked on the CD release through Warner Bros/Rhino music group.

I have seen many things I have said or put in my books,

written about online, either half right or completely wrong and never crediting where they got the information.

⛄ #cbs #christmas #tv #metv #frostythesnowman #clickbait #viral #rankinbass

The Return of The King 1980 Rankin/Bass

Wikipeida- "The film was going to air on ABC as a two-hour feature in the fall of 1979,
but it was pushed back to May 1980,
and the running time was changed from two hours to one hour and 38 minutes."

Wiki, you must have mistaken it as the edited 1983 broadcast please go get the May 10, 1980 TV GUIDE!

Both The Hobbit (1977) and The Return of the King (1980) were made for Telvision.

I believe it was 97 mins. When on TV with commercials to it that makes them both 2 hours.

Maybe you guys at Wiki misinterpirted Arthur Rankin's interview

start at 14:57 on the youtube video

Arthur Rankin Jr. : I love the Tolkien work. And most of the books were under copyright,
We approched the copyright holders but they wouldn’t let us touch anything
until I pointed out to them that two of them are in the public domain in the United States.

And the only other ones were we were seeking for the other two books.
They said “no you can’t do that. You can’t even use the public domain works.”

So we did The Hobbit, Which won the Peabody award and thats a good a good film .

We Tried to do The Return of the King and we did it, but there is an awful lot to put into in it.
I think Jackson is having the same problem in his films,
You know you can’t deviate from these books or sombody win on the street for you.
and to put all that material onto a film is very very difficcult
and we found that NOT with The Hobbit The Hobbit worked because it’s a simpler story.

But The Return of The King we had to summerize what happened berfore and put it all together in two hours.
It’s not a very good film.

interviewer: Why did you carlessly go straight to The Return of the King instead of parts 1 and 2 the trilogy,
The Lord of The Rings trilogy?

Arthur Rankin Jr. : I didn’t Know we can handle that well.
I didn’t know the audience would sit still for it I was wrong.

The Black Cauldron 1985 Walt Disney Pictures

again I'm going to repeat myself here for the best.

from my IAD fourm topic Disney's The Black Cauldron or There and Back Again to Prydain

xcerpt from Disney Film Behind Schedule August 10 1978
by Aljean Harmetz

Los Angeles - “The Black Cauldron” Walt Disney"s $10 million animated film scheduled for 1980, is four years behind schedule.
It will not be completed until Christmas 1984,
because the new crop of young animators the studio has spent six years acquiring are not yet competent to handle in complexities.
“The Black Cauldron” which is based on Lloyd Alexander’s interpretations of medieval Welsh mythology,
will be replaced in 1980 by a simpler and easier movie about animal freindship, “The Fox and the Hound.”,2605529&hl=en

(what this article is about is the switching of the completion dates)

I have come to the conclusion that the so called planed December 1984 release date was bunk.
the 1984 Date is THE completion date

start video at the 4:01 mark
narration excerpt from Backstage at Disney (1983)

John Culhane: "The Black Cauldron has been in the works for 3 years. scheduled to be released in 1985"

another evidence on the DVD of Don Hann's documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty
Randy Cartwrtight's 1983 Disney Studio's Home Movies. This footage is in the bonus features section

excerpt from Randy Cartwrtight's 1983 Disney Studio's Home Movies.

(Randy Cartwright was going to say farwell to Disney before he went off to Japan.)

Richard Rich : "You're going to Japan?"

Randy: "Yep."

Rosemary Anne Sisson: "Oh, no kidding."

Richard Rich : "Say a few words about your picture for posterity while we're here. It will be out in 1985."

Randy: "Hey, so will Nemo"

Randy is referring to TMS' Litte Nemo (one of the animated features that have long production histories.)

Richard Rich : "Is that right?"

Randy: "Hey!"

Richard Rich : "There we go. Then we'll see, Randy."

Randy: "Yes."

Rosemary Anne Sisson: "The Black Cauldron is gonna be the best picture that Disney ever made."

Randy: " And Little Nemo will be the best picture that Japan ever made."

I asked a youtuber who goes by the name of Filmmaker IQ about movie completion dates and here is what he said:

"Well, I don't think I've ever heard of the term "completion date" - there's an old editor's adage - a film is never done, it's only abandoned.

There's such a thing as a "Picture Lock" which means the picture is locked and moves to a different part of finishing... so I imagine a completion date is when the film is totally all done and finished.
Then the release date is just the date that it first goes on sale at the movie theaters or via streaming/TV"

a fellow member on this site mentions that Chuck Jones' The Phantom Tollbooth was completed in 1968, later released in 1970
and Eddie Murphy's film A Thousand Words had been on the shelf until 2012.

Excerpt from my recording of TCM showing of The Phantom Tollbooth

Robert Osbourne's intro for The Phantom Tollbooth: "MGM at that time was not quiet sure sure how to market the finished film. Turns out they never did figure it out.
When the film finaly was released, the company did not put much mussle behind it Mainly because MGM was struggling financully at that time with no money to promote it properly."

A Thousand Words 2012

I looked on Wikipedia (I think the Wiki author kind of researched well on
the film Thousand Words article that was last edited May 1, 2018. I looked at the source articles as well) There is more info
Finished filming in 2008, was planned to released in 2009.

The film was delayed and had reshoots in 2011,
director said the film will be released in 2011,
delayed to January 2012 (Eddie Murphy was assigned to host for the Oscars,
which murphy later stepped down of), March 2012 and finally April 20th 2012

Now back on topic to The Black Cauldron

I have doubts that Katzenberg had animation crew revise the animation. I think stuff like "Taran swinging his sword Dyrnwyn as he slays his foes" is bunk. While it is true that he cut parts of the cauldron born scene and had the other Disney employees cut the film further. I believe there are other scenes that other cut, but probably not violent.

again I will quote George Scribner:

"You go to screenings and you would be watching sequences that had very little character development.
Or no one was compelling, there was no one of interest. Yet there was– These sequences and these beats and these acts
were celebrated by the directors and the producers above you.

You’re at them, going, are we looking at the same movie? What are you trying to accomplish?
Where’s the charm? Where’s the heart? Where are all the things that made Dumbo?
Which, in my opinion, is one of the greatest movies ever made.

It’s the simplest storyline with this enormous sense of affection and emotion. And it’s this gorgeous little film.
I’m like, do you guys know your legacy?
Do you know the precedents that have established that you can look back to? What are you tryin to do?

It became clear, apparently, that I suppose most of these directors were looking at “Raiders” and some of the work
that Lucas and Spielberg were doing

And how can we make movies like them? Well no,
the object is to make movie that are dear to your heart, that spring within you.

It was a crazy period"

Disney Legend Floyd Norman has this to say:

"Being back in the Disney family meant I could attend screenings of the ill fated animated feature and each new screening grew successively worse.

The directors began shifting the order of sequences as if that would garner a more compelling narrative.
Sadly, nothing appeared to help and the arrival of new Disney management in 1984 only drove the nail deeper."

I saw pencil tests and storyboards of the characters that have different costumes, in other shots, the characters wearing costumes that is close to the final film)
and also rejected character designs ( King Eiddileg and Doli. and also Jonathan Winters voiced Eiddileg, later replaced by Arthur Mallet although Winters voice in WDHV's reconstructed alternate Fairfolk scene is not on there. the whole deleted alternate scene was redubbed. the work in progress audio does not exist anymore?)

The fair folk scene in the final film, I think that was revised before Jeffrey Katzenberg edited the film.

If Jeffrey should get screen credit in the film, he should get credited as Post Production Editor

more evidence that the planned release date was 1985. not 1984.

1984 article about the then new Disney leaders. Frank Wells Michael Eisner, Jeffery Katzenberg.
also in this article Richard Berger who was hired by former Disney CEO Ron Miller had resigned,

here is something interesting: “Disney’s animated feature for 1985, the $25 million medieval fable “The Black Cauldron,” is not one of Mr. Berger’s projects. Planning for “The Black Cauldron,” the most complex and expensive animated film ever made by Disney, began more than six years ago.“

and here is me debunking Disney War:

The Wind in the Willows copyright 1983 Rankin/Bass

Rick Goldschmidt's book The Enchanted World of Rankin/Bass A Portfolio says it aired July 5, 1985

every other website says 1987,

the Rankin/Bass filmography section on Warner Bros' DVDs of The Hobbit
and The Return of the King says The Wind in the Willows 1987

even a YouTube video of the broadcast bumpers says 1987


hmmmmmm So which is it really? 1985 or 1987?

and does anyone have the July 1985 TV Guides?

Edited by user Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:36:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

#2 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:59:45 AM(UTC)

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Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs 1937 Walt Disney

"Ink and Paint Women of Disney Used Make Up For Snow White's Blush In Her Cheeks"


here is an article that debunks it.

Not Rouge, Mr. Thomas!
by David Johnson


"The famous blush on Snow White's cheeks was a rose-colored dye - not paint, which, when carefully applied, bled into the surface of the cell itself,
thus producing this soft, diffused effect as the dye seeped through. This was applied to the top of the finished cell with a small piece of cotton wrapped around a tipple pencil,
not unlike a Q-Tip. Just how this process was ultimately reached is more difficult to substantiate. The late Ruth Thompson, a cell painter on "Snow White" who later became a multiplane scene planner,
recalled: "We tried everything - airbrush, drybrush, even lipstick and rouge, which is perhaps the basis for the legend because we did, in fact, try it. But nothing worked."

and a little bit of conflicting info on the "Snow White's rouge" from the audio commentary from the Pinocchio bluray and DVD:

Leonard Maltin: Cleo has rouge on her cheeks.

Eric Goldberg: Yeah

Leonard Maltin: As much as Snow White did And If I read correctly,
They used real rouge.

Eric Goldberg:
Yeah, thats the story I heard, too, is that you know they tried it,
and Walt loved it and said "Do it."

J.B. Kaufman: Having done that in Snow White, they expanded on it in Pinocchio.
They came up with a technique called "The Blend," which you see all the way through, including Geppetto's hair and so on.

Return of Jafar 1994 Walt Disney Home Video/Walt Disney Televison Animation
"Return of Jafar was done by Disney Toon Studios"

Close enough.

that sequel was done by Walt Disney Television Animation and their Australia unit and Japan unit (formerly Pacific Animation Corporation). same with Aladdin and The King of Thieves (1996)

The Austrialian unit became part of Disney Toon Studios as DisneyToon Studios Australia..
it was previously the Austrialian unit of Hanna Barbera.

I think this Wikipedia article on the topic of Disney Toon Studios is well written enough. last edited in May 14, 2018

after the video tapes of Return of Jafar were made available, a TV series followed Aladdin The Animated Series 1994 - 1995

Disney Movie Toons later Disney Video Premiere, Their first film was DuckTales The Movie: Treasure of the Lost Lamp (1990) with animation done by Walt Disney Animation France (formerly Brizzi Films) .
this movie was in theaters

in 1995 Disney released the 90's classic A Goofy Movie (also for theaters) animated by French, Canadian and Australian units

in 2003 Disney Movie Toons/Disney Video Premiere moved from Disney Televison Animation to Walt Disney Feature Animation. and Disney rebranded that as Disney Toon Studios

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 4:17:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

#3 Posted : Saturday, May 19, 2018 3:54:37 AM(UTC)

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Although this post is about shorts and not movies as the title of this thread suggests, there's something very suspicious about the credits for Mail Dog on this database. Ever wonder why we shouldn't trust reissue titles (which are, not surprisingly, included in the photo gallery for the short) for accurate information? Here's a couple of clues why.......

(Even one of the comments on the linked page, by Erik Palm, points out this puzzling mistake!)
thanks 1 user thanked WaltWiz1901 for this useful post.
VoiceTalentBrendan on 5/19/2018(UTC)
#4 Posted : Saturday, May 19, 2018 1:45:02 PM(UTC)

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The Black Cauldron 1985 Walt Disney Pictures

"The Black Cauldron was the first Disney animated theatrical feature to receive a PG rating.
It even had to be edited twice to avoid being released with a PG-13 or R rating."


from my Tumblr blog

“It even had to be edited twice to avoid being released with a PG-13 or R rating”.

I think they have intended this to be PG rated,

this was in pre production since the 1970′s, and in production since the early 1980′s.

There was no PG 13 rating until after parents criticizing the violence in films like Gremlins (1984)

and Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom (1984)

if you look at what was happening in the late 1970′s and 1980′s Disney was going through a slump,

While outside of Disney, filmmakers like Spielberg and Lucas made some interesting films.

According to Don Hann’s documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty: :”Around that time,

the studio did a survey that teenage movie goers would be caught dead near a Disney movie”

If you look at the Disney feature films
from the late 70′s and early 1980′s range from dark SciFi (The Black Hole 1979)

Thriller (The Watcher In The Woods 1981) Dark Comedy (The Devil and Max Devilin 1981 it’s a stinker)

horror (Ray Bradbury’s Something Wicked This Way Comes 1983)

Could it be that with Disney and their Prydain film was aimed at Spielberg or Lucas type crowd?

niche audience? 80′s teen crowd? Obviously the cauldron born scene is very Indiana Jones eqs.

( even resulting a outraged Katzenberg to cut the film in late 1984

Excerpt from The New York Times Article
August 27, 1984

“The Black Cauldron,” the most complex and expensive animated feature ever produced by Walt Disney Studios,

will be released next summer. This medieval Welsh fable,

based on a series of award-winning children’s books by Lloyd Alexander,

was filmed in 70 millimeter at a cost of $25 million.

The film’s Horned King villain is one of Disney’s most sinister characters.

The boy hero must find the Black Cauldron before the Horned King uses it to bring back dead warriors

from past wars and gather an invincible army. It is conceivable, said Ron Miller,

president and chief executive officer of Walt Disney Productions,

that the movie will be the first Disney cartoon to get a PG rating.”

Conflicting info on what was the Date of Jeffery Kattzenberg's Arrival at Disney or first weeks.

conflicting info, some sources say Katzenberg started at Disney in October 1984

a few sources say 1985: (This eldest article that announces as such, is one of them.)

also the book the Disney Touch by Ron Grover 1991

and the article from 1987 Disney Gearing Up For More Animation

on October 1, 1984 in this retro article:

it was announced that Jeffery Katzenberg would leave Paramount in January of 1985

and Join Disney in February of 1985.

from The New York Times
October 1, 1984

“Mr. Katzenberg’s contract at Paramount is up in January, and he will join Disney on Feb. 1.

Mr. Katzenberg has been wooed by at least three other movie studios since the resignation of

Paramount’s chairman, Barry Diller, on Sept. 11,

which started a round of musical chairs in Hollywood’s executive suites. In a statement today,

Mr. Katzenberg said that he was moving to Disney rather than staying at Paramount because of

the “opportunity to work in areas beyond motion pictures.”

In an interview last week, Mr. Eisner,

who resigned as president of Paramount Sept. 12 after he was passed over for the company’s chairmanship,

gave warning to the movie industry that he intended to make Disney studios competitive with the biggest

and best of Hollywood’s film companies.

In recent years, Disney’s film division has fallen on hard times.

Disney has been unable to shake the stigma of being considered a moviemaker for children.

The core teen-age audience, critical to a movie-maker today, has stayed away.

Neither “The Black Hole” nor “Tron,” two attempts to appeal to teen-agers, did as well as expected,

and, in 1983, Disney had to take a writedown of $21 million on “Something Wicked This Way Comes,”

a $23 million fantasy film based on a Ray Bradbury novel.

Under Ronald L. Miller, who was forced to resigned as president and chief executive officer on Sept. 7,

Disney recently initiated a non-Disney distribution label, “Touchstone,” for films with more mature themes.

The first Touchstone movie,

“Splash,” was a box-office hit. A romantic comedy about a mermaid that included some nudity,

“Splash” earned Disney more than $35 million in film rentals.

The second Touchstone film, “Country,” a movie starring Jessica Lange

that concerns the plight of present-day farmers, opened the New York Film Festival last Friday.

The average movie studio releases 12 to 15 movies a year. In addition to “Splash” and “Country,”

Disney’s only 1984 movie was a re-issue of its 1967 animated film,

“The Jungle Book.” Because of his extensive relationships with film makers,

Mr. Katzenberg, who started in the movie industry as assistant to the Paramount chairman 10 years ago,
is expected to help Disney win access to projects.”

hmmmmmm so Jeffrey’s first weeks at the studio was in February of 1985. huh

so he and the other Disney employees might have reedited the film at that time.

I doubt that Katzenberg had the animators, painters ,

Xerox people and camera crew reanimate certain parts of the film to make less violent. I have my doubts.

If some of you that worked for Disney in the late 1970′s and early to mid 1980′s have proof that

such a thing happened, please prove me wrong

The film already at that point cost a lot of money to make..

Steve Hulet's Mouse in Trasition Chapter 16

In this article, I’m now not sure what comes first,

Roy’s December 1984 letter to the Animation department to move the next year,

or Jeffrey Katzenberg at the Disney studio Screening of The Black Cauldron, later Jeffrey edits the film. .



another conflicting article from 1984

Excerpt from How The Hollywood Studio Shake-Ups Are Shaking Down
October 23, 1984
by Aljean Harmetz

“There is general agreement that Walt Disney Productions, which only released two new movies in 1984,

will become a major player in the Hollywood game of trying to hit home runs at the box office.

“The most important consequence of all this executive shifting will be the new role of Disney,” said Arthur Rockwell,

a former movie industry analyst who is now a vice president at M-G-M/UA.

“Three high-powered executives going to Disney clearly signifies Disney’s intentions of being a major studio.”

Jeffrey Katzenberg, the former president of movie production at Paramount who has moved to Disney as president of movies

and television,

said about the current situation: “I’m a buyer, and there’s going to be a sellers’ market for a while.

But in the last 10 years I’ve seen us go through at least three full boom-and-bust cycles.

’‘Historically, the movie industry has an ebb and flow of product. When you get more buyers or the current buyers get more

aggressive, you have a boom,

and inflated prices make it difficult to make deals. Traditionally, the boom is followed by a bust. A boom cycle started a year ago

and now we’re nearing the crest.

Had the managements stayed in place, we would have started a slow descent in the spring of 1985.

Now the bust is going to be delayed.”



Which is the date that Katzenberg started at Disney? Is it 1984 or 1985?

and what year was he actually there?

Edited by user Saturday, May 19, 2018 1:54:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

#5 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 5:01:23 AM(UTC)

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HAHA good! is D23 going to do this again this year?
#6 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 11:56:35 AM(UTC)

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Is "Disney Wars" that book where they say "The Lion King" is a rip-off of Tezua's "Kimba the White Lion"? Because that is a myth itself. According to Mark Kausler, who worked on "The Lion King", the anime was never brought up during the production, although both projects were inspired by "Bambi".

Edited by user Monday, July 2, 2018 12:06:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

#7 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 1:58:15 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: nickramer Go to Quoted Post
Is "Disney Wars" that book where they say "The Lion King" is a rip-off of Tezua's "Kimba the White Lion"? Because that is a myth itself. According to Mark Kausler, who worked on "The Lion King", the anime was never brought up during the production, although both projects were inspired by "Bambi".

I'm sure the rumors persisted long before DisneyWar was published. They even got a shout-out on The Simpsons ("You must avenge my death Kimba... I mean Simba").
#8 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2018 8:47:45 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: ToonStar95 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nickramer Go to Quoted Post
Is "Disney Wars" that book where they say "The Lion King" is a rip-off of Tezua's "Kimba the White Lion"? Because that is a myth itself. According to Mark Kausler, who worked on "The Lion King", the anime was never brought up during the production, although both projects were inspired by "Bambi".

I'm sure the rumors persisted long before DisneyWar was published. They even got a shout-out on The Simpsons ("You must avenge my death Kimba... I mean Simba").

I meant that it was once of those sources. I didn't say that it originated there.
#9 Posted : Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:06:38 AM(UTC)

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Amos Mouse' family history was deleted from Ben and Me


Ben and Me 1953 The Lberty Story (1957) amos' family history segment

in the Disneyland tv episode The Liberty Story (1957): Ben and Me is included as a segment and Amos Mouse' family history was made
for The Lberty Story (1957) it is NOT made for the orginal theatrical short.

I show you PROOF!

the late animator Michael Sporn's blog has the orginal storyboards by Bill Peet and If you look at the first storyboard Amos Mouse' family history is not there

In the Disneyland episode: The Liberty Story (1957) Amos Mouse' family history is longer than the color one.
you can find the episode on amazon instant

Where did the color one came from?

The Wonderful World of Color episode: Ben and Me and Peter and The Wolf (1964)

The color version of Amos Mouse' family history from The Wonderful World of Color episode: Ben and Me and Peter and The Wolf
and the short Ben and Me (1953) was used for the Walt Disney Mini Classics 1989 VHS of Ben and Me

and you can also checkout Jim Kokis' article about Ben and Me if you like

Edited by user Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:48:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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